I read RWS, should I ignore Thoth meanings

Samweiss said:

I don't think these cards are "oceans apart". From the PKT: "A crowned (a sign of Power surely?) figure, having a pentacle over his crown, clasps another with hands and arms; two pentacles are under his feet." Now, Crowley mentions that this card is stationery and the disks represents "law and order, maintained by constant authority and vigilance". For me, the fellow in RWS image seems to be things things. And the city background reminds me a bit about the fortress walls of the Thoth version.

That's why I don't like to look at the cards based on only the images, our interpretation gets easily skewed by our own prejudices. Many like to go for facial expressions and body postures instead of looking at human figures symbolically.

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Point taken. Yes, I agree. Images alone on the card influenced by the expressions and gestures of the character can affect the readers emotions at the time of the readings, and can skew the interpretations.

To me, that crown on that wee man's head didn't look anywhere significant to imply power or authority of any type and manner, but rather looked like a paper hat people wear on Xmas dinner, and the background reminded me of Xmas decorations and lights on his livingroom unit out of IKEA.

Hence, the reason we should study and consider other ancient esoteric fields such as Astrology, Qabalah, Numerology and even Yi King hat have you when reading tarot.

Michael Sternbach said:

Zephyros,
I thought about this some more. What it all comes down to is that for you and some others here, Thelema is a religion that you seem to subscribe to whole-heartedly. And the BoT and deck naturally are among its holy scriptures.

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I wouldn't put it quite like that.

I don't call myself a Thelemite or anything else, actually. If I believe in anything it is in literary contextuality. A Tarot deck with accompanying literature is a work like any other, and I look at in the context of its own rules. In Star Trek, faster than light travel is a normal thing, but it doesn't work if you don't accept that basic premise of suspension of disbelief because the story has the rules of its own universe.

If someone wants to ignore everything Crowley wrote about the deck, that's fine, but it is their own view and opinion and this should be made clear when writing a book about the deck. In many cases there's no question about what is there and why, and many things that aren't in the Book of Thoth can be found in others of Crowley's works if anyone wishes to find them. The symbolic language is laid out and works as a system where every element is usually built on another. I'm not ragging on Arrien, I did that enough in the thread I linked to, but her book is an example of where that language is set aside. It's like writing a review about a movie you've never seen, or a book you've never read.

Whether or not her ideas have any worth is debatable, but beside the point. I think one should expand their education to include all possible sources about a subject, which is why I read her book in the first place. But it is also important to get one's facts right first, to know what's really there, and only then to explore other avenues, especially in a work like this one's who's purpose is to redefine old terms. When different ideas are debated I usually don't interject with "that's not Crowley," and I'm not in a position to defend his legacy, but in a thread such as this one which is basically about study of the Thoth by a beginner I can't recommend general symbolic study or books that say they treat with the deck but are the personal projections of the authors. If you read The Tarot Handbook you'll get very little about the Thoth, but you will get to know Angeles Arrien pretty well. Same goes for projecting RWS meanings onto the Thoth, or the other way 'round. The end user can and should develop their ideas, but there's no excuse for misinforming people.

Arrien makes Thothies itch not because she goes against Crowley's grain, but because she doesn't understand the material, and makes it a selling point and something to be proud of. She says as much in the introduction. It would be one thing if she threw the BoT out the window because she didn't agree with it, but she affirms that she found it difficult, so she set it aside. That's fine, not everyone is into the occult, but it takes a special brand of hubris to say that and then write a book about what you admit you don't understand.

foolMoon said:

Point taken. Yes, I agree. Images alone on the card influenced by the expressions and gestures of the character can affect the readers emotions at the time of the readings, and can skew the interpretations.

To me, that crown on that wee man's head didn't look anywhere significant to imply power or authority of any type and manner, but rather looked like a paper hat people wear on Xmas dinner, and the background reminded me of Xmas decorations and lights on his livingroom unit out of IKEA.

Hence, the reason we should study and consider other ancient esoteric fields such as Astrology, Qabalah, Numerology and even Yi King hat have you when reading tarot.

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Just because Waite didn't mention anything about Qabalah or astrology doesn't mean their absence. I think RWS 4 of Pentacles show the symbolism of number 4 and Capricorn quite well. But I agree with you that the pictorial style makes them appear more limited, pictures only tell one side of the story. Thoth images show the 'essence' of the cards much better way, I think.

Samweiss said:

Just because Waite didn't mention anything about Qabalah or astrology doesn't mean their absence. I think RWS 4 of Pentacles show the symbolism of number 4 and Capricorn quite well. But I agree with you that the pictorial style makes them appear more limited, pictures only tell one side of the story. Thoth images show the 'essence' of the cards much better way, I think.

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I agree on all points. Some of the RWS cards are better than others at conveying the "essence;" but there are some where the pictures just seem to "hijack" the overall feeling of the card, effectively concealing any deeper interpretation. That doesn't mean it isn't there, but I think it's led generations of readers down the wrong path. The Thoth cards offer a much fuller perspective, but we have to work for it, which is a good thing.

Samweiss said:

Just because Waite didn't mention anything about Qabalah or astrology doesn't mean their absence. I think RWS 4 of Pentacles show the symbolism of number 4 and Capricorn quite well. But I agree with you that the pictorial style makes them appear more limited, pictures only tell one side of the story. Thoth images show the 'essence' of the cards much better way, I think.

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Barleywine's post above reflects my views very well. I have nothing more to add to that, as it is put with such an eloquence.

Michael Sternbach said:

I thought about this some more. What it all comes down to is that for you and some others here, Thelema is a religion that you seem to subscribe to whole-heartedly. And the BoT and deck naturally are among its holy scriptures:

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Whether Thelema is a religion or not, I am still not sure. But Book of Thoth, I think it is the original manual for Thoth Tarot deck. Nothing more and nothing less. It is, however the best written book of its kind in history due to its depth, detail and coverage based on the ancient philsophical religious and mythological background.

It is also essential part of Thoth tarot. Without it, Thoth tarot is incomplete in my book.

foolMoon said:

Whether Thelema is a religion or not, I am still not sure. But Book of Thoth, I think it is an original manual for Thoth Tarot deck. Nothing more and nothing less. It is, however the best written book of its kind in history due to its depth, detail and coverage based on the ancient philsophical religious and mythological background.

It is also essential part of Thoth tarot. Without it, Thoth tarot is incomplete in my book.

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Without the Book of Thoth, much of the complex thought that Crowley put into the deck would be inaccessible, unless one has a mind on par with his. I like his metaphor "The tarot is a razor!" Without the BoT, you'd need a mind like a razor (or maybe a laser) to be able to "cross blades" with it on its own terms. This is where pure intuition divorced from logic becomes like beating your head against a wall, despite how much progress you think you're making. Even if you get value out of the insights, you're probably nowhere near the creator's intent. You could still use it after a fashion, relying on basic meanings and your own imagination, but like the words of the old blues song, you'd be partially "deaf, dumb, crippled and blind" (sorry, "sensorially challenged").

Barleywine said:

Without the Book of Thoth, much of the complex thought that Crowley put into the deck would be inaccessible, unless one has a mind on par with his. I like his metaphor "The tarot is a razor!" Without the BoT, you'd need a mind like a razor (or maybe a laser) to be able to "cross blades" with it on its own terms. This is where pure intuition divorced from logic becomes like beating your head against a wall, despite how much progress you think you're making. Even if you get value out of the insights, you're probably nowhere near the creator's intent. You could still use it after a fashion, relying on basic meanings and your own imagination, but like the words of the old blues song, you'd be partially "deaf, dumb, crippled and blind" (sorry, "sensorially challenged").

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This is true. Cannot agree more. In that respect, RWS and TdM decks could be regarded somewhat disadvantaged in being deep and powerful as Thoth deck due to lack of theoretical and original documents and literary support from their creators like BoT for Thoth.

In my case, trasfering Thoth and GD meanings was relatively easy with TdM decks, but less so with the RWS and its clone decks due to its domineering pictorial effects on each cards.

foolMoon said:

This is true. Cannot agree more. In that respect, RWS and TdM decks could be regarded somewhat disadvantaged in being deep and powerful as Thoth deck due to lack of theoretical and original documents and literary support from their creators like BoT for Thoth.

In my case, trasfering Thoth and GD meanings was relatively easy with TdM decks, but less so with the RWS and its clone decks due to its domineering pictorial effects on each cards.

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For me, largely ignoring the narrative vignettes that the scenes on the RWS cards seem to be striving toward (some of which don't bear out the keyword meanings very well anyway) was the key to making that transfer. Many of the correspondences are already there in principle, just shrouded by the veneer of charming but superfluous story-telling. But as Samweiss said above, I do to some extent rely on the "facial expressions and body postures instead of looking at human figures symbolically." This is especially useful when looking at the narrative flow between a series of cards.

Barleywine said:

Without the Book of Thoth, much of the complex thought that Crowley put into the deck would be inaccessible.

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I agree pretty much with what you are saying. What I would mention though is that to buy the Book of Thoth eagerly as a newcomer, it could be disheartening to find that it appears pretty impenetrable and not particularly accessible. When I bought it, I immediately rushed out and bought Duquette's.

What it seems (from my new eyes) to be is a 'framework' for everything brilliantly in one place but not an explanation handed to you on a plate. The symbols and myths likewise are discussed and considered but again to be explored and studied for yourself.

I find that little nuggets start making a bit more sense, reading it with other works such as liber777, liber t, Vision and the Voice etc. I think in all honesty without more surrounding knowledge you could read or contemplate the BOT until your eyes crossed and you turned blue. That could just be me though