Determined to switch over to Swiss 1JJ Tarot deck from Rider-Waite, but..

saltyler

I'm a fairly young reader, although I've been reading for quite a few years. Here is my dilemma:
I acquired my current deck (Rider-Waite) through an interesting but not-interesting-enough-to-tell turn of events. The deck has been with me for years, helping develop my sense of understanding cartomancy and allowing my readings to have a more natural and genuine feeling, rather than searching for definitions of the cards. Ive found myself truly understanding the definitions of the cards through their artwork, and I'm able to understand the feel of a card much easier just by its look.

Through a couple of interesting reading bumps, I've found myself almost drawn to the Mareilles deck, but instead to its variant, the Swiss 1JJ deck. As almost silly as it sounds, the identity of Switzerland being held up by its status of neutrality by modern day recognition makes me more than definite in my sureness of wanting the deck myself. The idea of it coming from an area known for its neutrality speaks to me on much more of a natural level than i can explain. But therein lies my dilemma:

Reviewing the 1JJ deck, the suits are so basic in their imagery, there are no stories within the cards with people or settings or tokens. There are only the number of items within the suit, and details such as greenery or symmetry. I am so accustomed to reading my current (and only) deck especially based off the imagery in them, how do those who read the 1JJ (or any marseilles variant) read them themselves? Any tips appreciated, i am determined to switch my primary deck over, and i need to be able to see a little bit more as to how.

Much appreciated,
Salem
 

madhatter00o

Hello! Welcome to AT!

I'm on the same route as you in terms of switching to a Marseilles-based deck from a RWS. And I'm discovering many things as I scour the forums here.

The fact is, they're two very different beasts, especially when it comes to the Minor Arcana. (Even the Major Arcana have differences in meanings that, while seemingly slight, are rather significant.) The RWS system kindly depicts for us the more-or-less defined meanings of what the Minors mean, whereas the IJJ Swiss, and all Marseilles-style pips, focus heavily on the flow and sequencing of the Minors.

To grossly oversimplify the difference in the Number cards, the Marseilles-style decks, like the IJJ Swiss, heavily rely on visual patterns and how those patterns' relations to cards that depict figures (humans, animals, inhuman things, etc.).

In general, I recommend really brushing up on numerology, since it will form the strongest foundation for understanding the pips. There's a thread on the Knapp-Hall reading method, which I can't for the life of me relocate... >_<;; But if you can find it, it's really helpful, as it gives a basic and repeatable pattern that can get you through the pips fairly painlessly.

Knowing your elemental dignities well will also help.

Anyways, try starting here: http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?t=141823

There's also a really good discussion here (http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?t=93481) about ways to look at a Marseilles spread. This is especially useful because the cards of a Marseilles-based deck don't really have much meaning by themselves; they need to be surrounded by other cards in order to make sense. It's a great thread about looking at the "whole picture" of a spread and about how one can go about doing that.

And I highly recommend this thread (http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?t=112327) for getting a basic, well-rounded understanding of the card meanings. It does take some time to get through, though.

There's also the way of reading the pips through the Majors (Trumps): http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?t=165645. How useful this will be for you will depend on how much you accept the writer's arguments about correlating the Majors and Minors this way.

Finally, EE's "Eye Rhymes" (http://www.tarotforum.net/showpost.php?p=1519475&postcount=50) make for a very fulfilling way of reading Marseilles-style decks.

Just one last piece of advice. Try not to get bogged down in the highly esoteric stuff. The "Marseilles and Other Early Decks" forum has a lot to offer, but I find that some of the conversations get highly, HIGHLY theoretical and/or esoteric, going far beyond the basics for beginner Marseilles deck readers. I once followed a thread through several pages on a discussion about gnostic interpretations that, while very interesting and providing of a very well-thought out way of apprehending the broader meanings of the cards, was far beyond what I was (am) ready to handle.

Start with the basics and go on from there. ^_^

Anyways, I hope you enjoy the IJJ Swiss deck as well as your journey into a new part of the Tarot culture!

Good luck!

~ Hatter

Edit:

I found the Knapp-Hall Method in a Word.doc that I saved. I've quoted the method below. Keep in mind, this is just ONE way to help organize the pips for yourself and each pip still has its own meaning. This method merely generalizes those meanings so that we, as readers, can make sense of them without rote memorization.

Knapp-Hall Tarot Method

Many tarot reader avoid Marseille tarot because of the non illustrated pips, and they are note very convivial or easy.

Manley Hall did have a very easy method to use (and remember) the pips. Unfortunately, this is not in his Book “the Tarot an essay”, but one can find it in the little white booklet coming with his so lovely and unusual “Knapp-Hall tarot

It is a very complete little white book of 36 pages. I wont reproduce it (copyright wise…) but just give you the “EASY TO USE” pip method.

I’ll put apart Majors, court cards divination and all specific cards meaning, this you probably already know or may can found elsewhere.

The minor arcane is divided in four sequence or suits.

1- - the SCEPTERS (Wands) represent enterprise and success
2- - the CUPS represent love, happiness and emotion.
3- - the SWORDS reprensent hatred and misfortune (I’d prefer toughs)
4- - and the PENTACLES represent money, and material business

Its is quite close to the standard method, and you may very ell use your own specifications

THE EASY HALL 3 WORDS PIPS METHOD
(surely Manly Hall would hate this title… )

Then to use the pip method you put aside the 10, which is the sum of all influences of the suits, and you divide the card from Ace tot 9 in 3 parts

1 The first group (ace, 2 and 3 is the “commencement”, the beginning of the suit.
2 The second group (4-5 and 6 ) is the “opposition” of the suit
3 The last group (7, 8 and 9) is the “equilibrium” of the suit.

Remember these 3 words: “commencement” “opposition” and “equilibrium”

In every of the 3 groups, they are tree cards,
1 Once again the firs one is “commencement””
2 The second of each group is “opposition”
4 The last of each group is “ equilibrium”

So you have

Ace BEGINNING of Beginning (remember it is the first group)
2 OPPOSITION of Beginning
3 EQUILIBRIUM of Beginning
4 BEGINNING of Opposition (we’re in the second group)
5 OPPOSITION of Opposition
6 EQUILIBRIUM of Opposition
7 BEGINNING of Equilibrium (as we’re in the third group)
8 OPPOSITION of Equilibrium
9 EQUILIBRIUM of Equilibrium

And you had the 10 which, as said in the beginning is the sum of all influences in the suit, and so it is “neutral”.

As you guess, beginning mark an idea, an beginning. The opposition mark an obstacle, an opposition and the equilibrium mark the harmony.

As an example, 4 of sword is the beginning of opposition in the word of sword, so a rest, a retreat form the hatred or the ideas sword may mean. In the 5 of sword, one “oppose” to the opposition, so do hi best to go trough the opposition, look for a way to make his way. In the 6 of sword, the equilibrium of opposition, one may goes away or change his view, to bypass the opposition.

According to Manly Hall this 3 words method is sufficient for one to explain all the minors. It may be not very juicy explanation, but dealing with pip (or even whith illustrated minor, and having a blank, it may give some way to understand the card)

As many Marseille readers, (Wirth and Papus oriented), Hall seems to think that minors are somewhat mundane, but isn’t everyday life mundane too? At least, his method give some easy cue to plain pips.

Queen of Pentacle

Also, in the same document I found Jodorowsky's numerology; since he's an authority on Marseilles Tarot, his insights are very handy references.

In short, it's like this:
1) beginning of a new cycle, everything in potential
2) accumulation, preparation for action
3) creative explosion, profound transformation
4) equilibrium, stability
5) new ideal, temptation to go further
6) aperture, pleasure, doing what one enjoys
7) action in the world
8) perfection, receptivity
9) positive crisis, new construction
10) end of the cycle, completion of the experience (permits the start of a new cycle)

Even numbers are receptive energy and odd numbers are active, so the polarity reverses at each stage.

Here, "active" refers to moving forward and active growth, while "receptive" refers to the time and space that is required to let things happen naturally.

Finally, a brief run-down of the Suits:

Sceptres/cudgels are a bit of a problem in that their meaning would switch depending on which image is used - sceptres imply royality and rulership, while cudgels seem like crude weapons employed in a bar fight or peasant uprising. I suppose a dominance theme exists in either case. More generally I think of them as pointers - an extension of the index finger or hand and therefore indicative of will or intent; the desire to get something done or to move in a particular direction. In their most basic form they are sticks used as basic tools by apes.

Cups have to do with nurturance and the healing power of love found both in personal and spiritual relationships. They also imply drinking/drugs which are associated with altered states of consciousness ranging from dreams and imagination to maudlin escapism. They emerged from the idea of two cupped hands lifting water to drink or any kind of cupped shape for holding and carrying things.

Swords/knives are for warring, killing, cutting, dividing, separating, warding, warning and punishment (Justice carries a sword), or stabbing (getting-to-the-point). Even as plowshares, their purpose is to cut the earth. Since many of them are two-edged it brings up standards of absolutism: right/wrong, good/bad, guilty/innocent and attempts to determine (and divide) these. I include concepts such as definition and discrimination. In a modern context I often think of them as problem-solving.

Coins are money - mediums of trade and exchange. Early coins had significance that depended on the weight of precious metals. With them we weigh the worth of our efforts, and establish our value and security through jobs, home, possessions, protection and other forms of physical well-being - whatever money can buy. They evolved from markers stamped with value or ownership indicative of the effort or work involved in securing them. Furthermore, an article on the symbolism of money notes: "All true money must be derived from a commodity, or at least have a substance to back it up, or it will gradually become fraudulent, or fiat money."

Perhaps we could look at the suits as vestigal tools for:
1) Sceptres/cudgels - pointing, reaching
2) Cups - holding, carrying
3) Swords - cutting, separating
4) Coins - securing, commodifying

Pair these with the Major Arcana of the same number and see what emerges.

It helps if you devise a storyline that goes with each suit emphasizing how each suit fares differently under the forces of each Major or stage in the number sequence. It's usually easier to remember what happens in the story. An example of such a story (without the majors & based on the RWS deck) appears in _21 Ways to Read a Tarot Card_ - showing what happens to each suit when taking a day-hike over a mountain.

Mary
 

Fiver

Congrats and good luck shifting to the Marseilles. I love using a Marseille for readings. Just be wary of the 1JJ Swiss deck... most the readings are middle of the road...


get it? :D


ahhh you'll do fine!
 

Freddie

I am a big fan of the 1JJ, good choice and don't forget to have fun while you learn.



Freddie
 

Thoughtful

l love the 1JJ its a quirky endearing tarot. Never lets me down in readings.
S. Kaplan has written a soft back book that can be bought quite cheaply which is devoted to the 1JJ.
 

agviz

Wow Madhatter, that's a crazy great post with lots of ideas. Thanks; I'll be reading through all those links!

One quick read that I've found helpful with reading Marseille is Lee Bursten's book which accompanies the Universal Tarot of Marseilles kit. For such a short book, it really packs in some great ideas that guide you how to read the deck in your own fashion. That was a great starting point for me. I've heard others rave about Lee's book too, so I know I'm not alone in my appreciation.

I'm still developing my Marseille reading style and continue to look for resources. One recent book I've just started on is Marseille Tarot: Towards the Art of Reading by Camelia Elias. Too early to tell for sure, but this seems like a book that encourages intuition quite a bit.
 

agviz

l love the 1JJ its a quirky endearing tarot. Never lets me down in readings.
S. Kaplan has written a soft back book that can be bought quite cheaply which is devoted to the 1JJ.

What's the name of his book? Is it still in print?
 

Freddie

I like that book and it can be had very cheap. It is simple and straightforward. I have to say again that I love love love this deck as I got mine in about 1982-83 and it was the first deck I ever bonded with. I feel with Juno and Jupiter that this deck has a warmer feel to it than the more Catholic earlier versions. I am still considering getting the Swiss Fool as a tattoo..... we'll see.


Enjoy your journey!!!!



Freddie