Off-Centre: "XIV"

Vincent

Umbrae said:
Truly, what appears to be important here is does one follow the dictates of Levi’ (Temperance = Nun (everlasting – baptism)) or does one follow the Golden Dawn (Samekh = Daughter of the Reconcilers, bringer forth of life…probationary or tentative intelligence).

It doesn't matter which dictates we follow, the question really is what dictates did Waite follow.

Waite says in the Holy Kabbalah;

"I may go further and say that the true nature of Tarot
symbolism is perhaps a secret in the hands of a very few
persons, and outside that circle operators and writers
may combine and attribute them as they like, but they
will never find the right way."

So what is the right way according to Waite, and who are the 'very few persons' that know the true nature?

If it can be shown that Waite attributed some of the paths and letters in the same manner as the Golden Dawn, wouldn't that be very persuasive evidence that he used Golden Dawn attributions for all of them?

There is also the suggestion from Aleister Crowley, (who, no doubt, some might attempt to dismiss as a turnip),that;

it becomes quite clear that Levi's wrong attribution of the letters was deliberate; that he knew the right attribution, and considered it his duty to conceal it.

The 'right' attribution Crowley is talking about is the Golden Dawn system.

Umbrae said:
Does one use either the Sagittarius or Aquarius?

In the Waite deck?

Take, for example the High Priestess. Waite says of this card that;

She is, in fine, the Queen of the borrowed light, but this is the light of all. She is the Moon nourished by the milk of the Supernal Mother.

If anyone is in doubt, as to what Waite means when he says "Queen of borrowed light", they might like to consider the hymn by John Newton;

The moon has but a borrowed light,
A faint and feeble ray;
She owes her beauty to the night,
And hides herself by day.

The Golden Dawn attributes this card to the Moon.

They also attribute the letter Gimel to the High Priestess.

And when Waite talks about 'Moon nourished by the milk...", it is obviously Gimel he is talking about. Gimel is the 'Abundant Giver', the idea of nourishment being a key aspect of this Sephira.

There are many other examples of Waite taking Golden Dawn symbolism and attributions for use within his deck, but if anyone has a serious counter-argument, I am only too happy to listen, and amend my views as necessary.

Simply 'feeling' that the attributions might be wrong, is not, to my mind at least, a serious counter-argument.

Umbrae said:
And under what circumstances does it matter?

In what context?

In the context of... what does it matter when there are children dying in terrorist attacks, it matters not at all.

In the context of Tarot as a whole, it probably means very little

In the context of a newsgroup concerned with the Rider Waite Tarot deck, it seems fairly important.

Umbrae said:
If Qabalistic use in question (perhaps the thread should be moved to the correct forum in such a case), then perhaps it does matter (pathworking etc.).

Why should it be moved to another forum?

The matter involves the correct qabalistic attributions for a qabalistic deck. That deck being the RWS, what forum could be more 'correct' than the RWS forum.

Umbrae said:
Under uses of standard divination – does it matter?

If it does not matter…

What is "standard divination"?

Divination is not the only use, and perhaps not even the most interesting use for Tarot.

Vincent

Fulgour

and the cups too

Umbrae said:
...using Christopher Tyler’s center line theory – yup – the center line bisects an eye…

I'm unaware of who Christopher Tyler may be, but the centre line
(discoverable using a simple pocket scale) is right at two inches
from either edge.

On centre at 2" we have the bottom point of the V of XIV,
the top point of the Triangle design on Raphael's chest, and
(very noteworthy) the split between the right foot's toes.

Factoring in the central twin Cups, I think we see a quadrant,
much as might be formed by the four fixed signs of the Zodiac.

...yup?

Fulgour

for anyone interested:

Eye Placement Principles In Portraits And Figure Studies
Over The Past Two Millennia

by Christopher W. Tyler

Ancient Eye Placement Principles

"In summary, the analyses presented reveal a dominant
positioning principle for one eye to lie at the vertical axis
of portraits over the past two millennia."

And yet the centre is not on either eye...

Umbrae

By golly you’re correct. The center line runs down the line used to define the figure’s left side (our right) of the nose.

The left eye is centered directly over the point of the triangle on the chest emblem.

The composition and the placement of the numerals DO however cause our eye to travel in an arc…it forces the eye to the lower left corner of the picture. The posture and the placement of the numerals are used to make us uncomfortable – we have to ‘adjust’ our focus.

It’s an artists trick used by Ms Smith to re-enforce the ‘temper' in temperance. Perhaps?

Edited to add: Hold the phone!

I thought…then I looked up at the computer “ruler” and thought…these cards are not 4” wide!

So I got a ruler.

RWS (Original) measure 7cm in width. Which I believe is 2.755906 inches. But it in no way changes the composition.

Fulgour

full scale: 1.0 = 1.0

Umbrae said:
The left eye is centered directly over the point
of the triangle on the chest emblem.

I used the more technical reference for a ruler (scale),
which my years of study and work in draftsmanship
have ingrained into my vocabulary ~ and my knack
for spotting anomalies. Neither eye is on-centre here,
and you may measure by means howsoever you wish.

http://www.sacred-texts.com/tarot/pkt/img/ar14.jpg

The V of XIV is, over the Triangle is, over the two split toes;
as I am sure Miss Pamela Colman Smith skillfully intended.

Umbrae

…Which further emphasizes the figures raised left shoulder and entire shift to our left.

Experts always blather some pap that “Temperance stands with one foot in the water and one on land…” or some such nonsense, when in fact from looking at the posture of the pose – and the composition of the entire card, the figure is shifting all movement and weight to the foot standing in the water – the one directly underneath the V.

As I said before, It’s an artists trick used by Ms Smith to re-enforce the ‘temper' in temperance.

lark

Umbrae said:
…Which further emphasizes the figures raised left shoulder and entire shift to our left.

Experts always blather some pap that “Temperance stands with one foot in the water and one on land…” or some such nonsense, when in fact from looking at the posture of the pose – and the composition of the entire card, the figure is shifting all movement and weight to the foot standing in the water – the one directly underneath the V.

As I said before, It’s an artists trick used by Ms Smith to re-enforce the ‘temper' in temperance.

I think she is also making a comment about the shift and weight of society being off balance.
To much blade and not enough chalice.
The toes opening into the downward V position "blade."
Puts the full weight on the blade.
And of course that leads to to much "temper."
With out enough "temperance " to balance it.

Fulgour

hello lark

lark said:
And of course that leads to to much "temper."
With out enough "temperance " to balance it.

This is a very beautiful observation and commentary, also
for those of us sincerely interested in the revealed meaning
of Pamela's artistic innovations regarding her alignments,
it may be noted that, on centre, Temperance divides thus:
TEMPE - RANCE (rather than leaning toward "Temper").

Of the reference to Tempe, there is much to be discovered.
~from
Webster's Third International New Dictionary
[L, fr. Tempe, a beautiful valley in ancient Thessaly,
fr. Gk Tempe] : a place (as a valley, glen, or rustic
retreat) of great natural beauty and charm.

see also:

"There is a vale in Haemonia [Thessalia], enclosed with hanging forests, steep on every side; men name it Tempe. Here Peneus rolls at towering Pindus; foot his foaming course, and from his mighty fall the swirling clouds of mist drift down in rain upon the trees, and far the waters’ wearying roar resounds. Here is the home, the mansion, the retreat of that majestic Amnis (River); seated here within a rock-hewn cavern he dispensed justice to all his waters and their Nymphae."

Ovid : Metamorphoses 1.478 & 544 & 568

Parzival

Off-centre: "XIV"

"Tempe" means a "beautiful valley" through which river waters flow! Perfect for getting centered. Thanks for the etymology.

Umbrae

Indeed!

I myself always leaned towards Temper (v) meaning: to tune (as in keyboard instruments) as in Well-Tempered Clavier (Johann Sebastian Bach).

In addition – there is the ability of Temperance to bring together all of our diverse backgrounds to a point of agreement…

...adjusting...

Off-Centre: "XIV"

Vincent

Fulgour

Fulgour

Umbrae

Fulgour

Umbrae

lark

Fulgour

Parzival

Umbrae