How can I check my birthday time?

MandMaud

Ideally that would be the case but life is usually more messy than that. In many countries the birth time is not recorded, such as England and Wales. So there isn't a record of any sort which relates to time of birth.

It's also possible that cutting the cord doesn't lead to independent breathing and there has to be some intervention. I'm told that when I was born, there was a real danger of death because I wasn't breathing. The midwife intervened and obviously saved me but that process took time and went on after the cord was cut. Some form of medical intervention is actually more common that we imagine. The situation therefore is rather uneven, with some countries or regions giving a good indication of time of birth, whilst others don't and what determines the Astrological basis is the memories of relatives. That's part of the 'detective' work LOL

Trying to stay on topic but it annoys me and I wish people would trust the body to know what it's doing - most such "emergencies" wouldn't be, if they waited until the baby breathed and *by that* knew when to cut the cord... Most interventions are unnecessary and most make things worse.

Ahem. End of rant.

I think the perpetual uncertainty over birth time will begin to get my goat, when I get into more advanced astrology. For the moment I'm content to be vague! This is why I love following this kind of thread, I learn so much from watching how you do it. :)
 

ivanna

Ahem, you are completely right.

I also like threads like this, I learn a lot.

I can wait to receive my new astrology book on monday to learn a bit more and start to decipher my natal chart. Eheheh
 

MandMaud

Ahem, you are completely right.

I also like threads like this, I learn a lot.

I can wait to receive my new astrology book on monday to learn a bit more and start to decipher my natal chart. Eheheh

What book have you ordered? :)
 

MandMaud

Astrology: Understanding the Birth Chart: A Comprehensive Guide to Classical Interpretation
Burk, Kevin

That's on my wishlist already! :) From the Kindle sample it seemed very good.
 

Minderwiz

That's on my wishlist already! :) From the Kindle sample it seemed very good.

It's not pure traditional Astrology, in fact it's only mildly so but for someone who wants to try it out without being hit by culture shock, it's a very good starting point. Indeed it was one of my starting points on my voyage.

In hindsight there's material in there that I would disagree with, or is not 'classical' (but then that's a very vague term) but the shear fact that it helped get me to take an interest says an awful lot about the regard I hold it in.

For a quite short but succinct differentiation between the Modern and the Traditional, there's Ben Dykes' Traditional Astrology for Today'.

If either of you are interested in Magical practices or Hermeticism, Dykes has been interviewed on SkyScript:

http://www.skyscript.co.uk/bdykes.html

He's actually very interested in the 'magical' side of Astrology and has written a book on it.
 

MandMaud

Thanks for that link, Minderwiz. I thought I'd dip in quickly and found myself reading the whole interview - and learning, again. It leaves me much clearer on the differences between medieval astrology and what seems like the "ordinary" kind (coming to it through the common-or-garden route from what "everyone has heard" through getting a bit deeper and then another bit deeper and so on). Most websites and books don't make it plain that they're referring to one or the other kind, at least if you butterfly from page to page as I tend to instead of reading each "introduction", so it's easy to confuse the various systems.
 

Minderwiz

MandMaud said:
Most websites and books don't make it plain that they're referring to one or the other kind, at least if you butterfly from page to page as I tend to instead of reading each "introduction", so it's easy to confuse the various systems.

The best approach is to assume that the site is some form of Modern Astrology, unless it explicitly says that it is traditional, or you notice that it doesn't use the outer planets (though it might still be a Vedic site). Most Modern Astrologers don't thing about any form of Astrology before Dane Rudhyar, though that might not stop them using midpoints or hypothetical planets (though there are now far more than enough real ones to go around). They will treat 'classical. Astrology as the works of Leo, Carter, Adams, Ebertin plus a few others.

The trouble is the fairly major breaks in the history of Astrology. The most significant one for our purposes is the break between Lilly and Morin and their immediate followers, at the end of the Seventeenth Centuries and the development of current trends in Astrology, which began with Alan Leo at the end of the nineteenth century but reached it's current dominant interest in jungian psychology in the 1950's.

Even that statement is extremely crude and misleading. The 'break' was more a shift into the background as Astrology ceased to be important to both medicine and to philosophy/science. There are still Astrologers at work but producing little that is significant, with one or two exceptions. With little in the way of formal teaching and legislation that actively penalised Astrologers as fortune tellers. There was little room for development.

Leo was prosecuted in the early twentieth century (1917) for 'fortune telling' and despite attempts to establish Astrology as a 'respectable' system it was not really till the 1950s that really began to blossom with the repeal of the 1735 Witchcraft Act (the last trial was in 1944)

The effect of this legal environment was to force Astrologers to concentrate on 'personality' and 'character' rather than make predictions or forecasts. That is not to say that there was not much valuable work done in the first half of the twentieth century but apart from Leo's 'invention; of a Sun sign approach and the introduction of some vedic beliefs such as the role of the nodes, it was necessarily limited in scope. Certainly in the UK and probably the USA.

Given the predominance of the psychological approach, Astrology is still personality centred today. Again even this is a very crude summary. It ignores other significant developments such as the Hamburg school of the 1930s and the work of Alfred Witte and Rheinold Ebertin, the two most distinguished Astrologers associated with it. Their work led to 'Uranian' Astrology, with its emphasis on hypothetical trans Neptunian planets (and later trans Pluto) and Cosmobiology and its emphasis on mid points. Much of their ideas are incorporated into the work of modern writers who also draw on Jung.

Although ridiculed towards the end of his life for his belief in trans Neptunian planets, Witte's work 'prepared' Astrologers for the discovery of new bodies such as Chiron in 1975 and the raft of bodies discovered since. So we now have a predisposition to treat new planets as having to be of major astrological significance and you will find lots of websites that look at Chiron, Sedna, Eris, Ceres, Haumea, Makemake, either on their own or in combination.

Add to this the development of interest in harmonic 'aspects' and theoretical points then you end up with the possibility of almost unlimited variations of Astrology that are determined by the interests and personality of their inventors. That's why Astrology is a mess at the moment.

Of course not every Astrologer uses everything that is possible but the mix and match approach leads to a lot of individual astrologies, rather than a science of Astrology.

Now that's a very crude summary of events and ideas that really require a book rather than a short post. Disillusion with the new 'Astrology' actually dates back further than you would think, with the questioning of the Tropical Zodiac by such writers as Cyril Fagan. Dave knows a lot more than I ever will on that branch but my point here is that 'events' rather than 'mind' were not lost sight of as the purpose of astrological practice.

The current interest in Traditional practices grew out of a similar disillusionment. At first it was simply aimed at finding out what those practices were, now it's more a process of actually using them. Within the traditional websites, you will probably find that Lilly/Morin sites outnumber the others, because their approach was easiest to access - especially Lilly, who wrote in English.

The Medieval texts are in Latin, either originally or by translation (usuallyfrom Arabic) or Arabic, either originally or by translation ( usually from Farsi (Persian)) That means that someone has to translate them into English or other modern language, or the Astrologer has to learn Latin or even Arabic. Ben Dykes is a literal powerhouse of such translations with others such as Rob Hand and James Holden being heavily involved.

The oldest tradition is Hellenistic (where the use of horoscope charts was invented) and that requires translations from Greek or Latin. Again this makes access more difficult for the modern reader. These too are becoming more accessible.
 

MandMaud

Thanks, Minderwiz, for that "crude summary"! (Only just seen it as I was away for the weekend.) Well done summarising - it is really difficult to condense knowledge when you're familiar with it in much more depth, I know. And it's perfect for the level I'm at. You have cleared up a lot of muddle in my mind.

Particularly interesting about the Witchcraft Act, which I hadn't realised had been used against astrologers - at least, it's obvious but I hadn't thought about that. And its consequence of moving away from prediction.

I agree with you that mix-n-match can't work well. It would be like using the Lenormand meaning for the Tower with a Tarot deck, as and when you feel like avoiding the calamity meaning. For the moment, I'm going to allow my learning to keep mixing-n-matching... while I find out which system I actually prefer (which must wait till I know more). But now, I'll be doing that with awareness.

I had a similar muddle at the beginning of my tarot studies, not realising about the Thoth/RWS distinction. Inevitable, I suppose, when we learn by leaping in at whatever level each website and book happens to be. All part of the fun of smorgasbord learning which does suit my Mercurial mind. ;)

A couple more questions. (Thank you ivanna for letting me hijack your thread!)

As a traditional astrologer, do you just ignore the "extra" planets, more recently discovered?

And how do you "classify" Alan Oken? I've been reading his articles, without understanding every word - very like watching Open University maths when I was little. :laugh:
 

Minderwiz

A couple more questions. (Thank you ivanna for letting me hijack your thread!)

As a traditional astrologer, do you just ignore the "extra" planets, more recently discovered?

And how do you "classify" Alan Oken? I've been reading his articles, without understanding every word - very like watching Open University maths when I was little. :laugh:

Not all traditional Astrologers ignore the outers but they do ignore the modern rulerships. In my case I do ignore anything discovered after Saturn but I also will use the fixed visible stars, which actually have had a deeper impact on the human psyche than the invisible outers. I happen to agree with Rob Hand that the meanings of the outers are not 'new' but are hived off the classical seven, and he argues that the meanings don't follow the so called 'higher octave'rationale which are supposed to underpin them. Just because it's out there doesn't mean you have to use it. Lumps of rock floating in space, are not all astrologically significant LOL. Indeed if they were you would not be able to cast or interpret a chart. There are thousands of them and even if we keep to the larger ones they still turn a chart black with a large number of plots. There's a tendency that grew in the twentieth century to take every astronomical discover as astrologically important and rush to produce ephemerides and interpretations. It just leads to confusion.

By the same token I ignore the minor aspects (though the so called quincunx and the sem-sextile are what the Hellenistic and Medieval Astrologers called inconjuncts or aversions and they do have meaning because they are not aspects). I ignore all the harmonics that are not major aspects. That's because aspects are more than just fractions of a circle.

Alan Oken isn't a traditional astrologer, though he does draw on some traditional principles. He is actually into esoteric Astrology and uses a whole new set of rulers. For a more detailed examination have a look at:

http://www.esotericastrologer.org/MiscFiles/EAintro.htm

for a run down of esoteric Astrology and the Seven Rays. It might be something that appeals to you but I'd also suggest you get a basic grounding first. Oken writes good introductory books though they are just that and you will branch out from them.