Holistic Tarot - Benebell Wen

Citrin

To me, any reading which makes an assumption about the future in any way is divination or fortune-telling. We can dress it in empowering clothes by adding the phrase "but you can change it if you want," but that doesn't change the fact that we're reading a future event in the cards.
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To my mind, Wen's approach is just as prediction and event oriented - in other words, divinatory - as anyone else's. This in itself doesn't bother me; I just wish she wouldn't spend so much time dancing around the issue and trying to make her approach sound more rationalistic than it actually is

I absolutely love this book, as I've said before, but I actually find it refreshing to see someone criticize it because bringing inconsistencies up for discussion is always important and we can all learn from that.

The above quotes I must say are things I also thought about when reading the book, Lee. At first I didn't want to purchase it because I read the cards the way I now know that Wen reads them, but when I thought they would be 100% "a diagnostics tool" and not at all divination - didn't feel like my cup of tea! So in a way I was pleasantly surprised seeing that she shares my reading style and not the "psychological one". ;)

I also reacted when I saw some of her example readings, because they are so clearly predictive in some cases! Like asking about if someone will get married soon, how the job interview will turn out etc... A "true psychological reader" would in my opinion rephrase those questions completely, asking "How do I make the best of my job interview?" and never "How will it go?". She even has one case where a man gets fooled by his job partner and he then calls Wen up telling her that her predictions were true and he wishes he would've listened to her.

She also talks about force majeur and karmic life situations, which are things that will happen to the seeker that he/she has no control over (Tower-events etc). To me these things also seem like clear predictions = divination/fortune-telling...

So even though I love the book I also wish she would've calmed down a little with the bashing of predictive readings because it doesn't represent the rest of the book, I agree with you there Lee.
 

Chrystella

In one way, I agree with you here, that she does try a tad bit too hard to come off as a "smart, intellectual, normal person" with those statements she makes. But on the other hand, I also really like that about her! Because I'm also working very hard to show people that tarot doesn't have to be only for the gypsy wannabes in horrible tie-dye dresses that talk about curses and want to come off all "mysterious and unique".

I'm kind of sick of those people claiming tarot is all about magic and mystery, and quite frankly those readers come off as very poorly educated and backwards, and I feel like they have hurt tarot readers' reputations enough already. I find it refreshing with a tarot reader showing the world something else.

I must say I was kind of surprised seeing the part about that she uses a silk cloth for her personal deck, and that she uses crystals, since I find those things a little bit old school superstitious, but... Who's perfect? :p LOL.

I agree with these statements. But I'm also okay with it.

Tarot is all of these things. It is the French ladies in their parlour; it is the gypsy on Spanish streets; it is the ceremonialists in their fancy robes; it is the psychologists at their fine desks; it is Miss Cleo; and it is the housewife at her kitchen table.

To me, a holistic approach to tarot includes all of it - the scholastic, the historical, the occultism, the psychological, the mystery, the New Age, and the mundane. There are certain aspects of this that are not for me, e.g. you will never, ever see me in tie dye :p but I don't think we need to put one approach down in order to legitimise tarot. Tarot is colourful and mysterious and that's why it appeals to so many different kinds of people.
 

benebell

Hello.

Someone recommended that I check out this thread, so here I am. Hi! After skimming these pages, I then debated whether to comment, so I consulted the tarot and drew the Ace of Swords. (Really? Ace of Swords. Really?! Tarot and its synchronicities still freak me out at times.) Anyway, while I’m sure we can now debate how I’ve interpreted the Ace of Swords, I personally took it as a sign to reply.

With regard to the fortune-telling and divination distinction, at least from a Chinese perspective, I submitted a piece on that in _Spiral Nature_, so if you are at all interested, please keep an eye out for that.

In short, though, I agree with Teheuti: I didn’t explain that otherwise complex issue of fortune-telling and divination well at all in my book and really should have. I also agree with Lee and others that I belabored the “anti” point. That is entirely my own fault and it was really more of an editing error. In reviewing that ginormous manuscript under tight deadlines, my focus became scattered. I didn’t realize how redundant I came across in the opening chapters until very late into the publisher review phase and by then, I couldn’t do the major overhaul those sections needed. Again, entirely my own fault. In retrospect, I should have been more attentive to the presentation of that opening matter.

As for being rationalistic and psychologically-oriented, yes, though not at the exclusion of supernatural agency (which I don’t see as “supernatural”). There is a very natural metaphysical component to all that is in the physical form and I believe tarot has an uncanny, inexplicable way of tapping into that metaphysical component, which we don’t fully understand today, but is still “psychological” and rational. I say that because I believe in a collective unconscious and how the signs and symbols of tarot form a language that allows information (that may seem supernatural) to cross the bridge between the unconscious to the conscious. All that theoretical mumbo-jumbo is for another book, perhaps.

While fortune-telling and divination were not the main objectives of the book, which is why I used both terms together in some sentences, using the book for divinatory purposes is certainly instructed. Divination is just a part of the whole. Divinatory practice is but one rung on the ladder up to self-actualization, or universe-actualization. However, divination is not the end all be all of tarot study, at least not for me.

My main objective for the book is to convince someone who might otherwise believe that he or she is too rational-based to be interested in something like tarot to get interested in it, because there is great value to learning tarot for self-actualization. I presumed that once a rational skeptic took the step of working with tarot, that aspect of tarot that seems esoteric or occult would be revealed through individual work. That conclusion is one reached by the individual, not one that needs to be plainly stated by my book. I was hoping that my book’s structure, from page one to the end, would be a pathway that leads an individual to draw that personal conclusion and open up the doors of curiosity to the metaphysical.

Another objective is to demonstrate how complex tarot is, that tarot is a subject matter worthy of serious study (I’d be preaching to the choir here, on this thread), that it is just as if not more complex than certain bodies of law, certain academic studies, courses we would teach in a university setting, which is why tarot would require a treatise to be written about it. (Though by no means would I dare call my book fully comprehensive. Achieving full comprehensiveness in a book on tarot is incredibly difficult, as I’ve come to learn.)

Even to that effect I came up short, as I did not include a chapter on tarot and the Kabbalah, an intersection that is so entrenched in tarot studies that not mentioning it is pretty absurd. I also neglected to talk more in-depth about understanding the Major Arcana through the three septenaries, which is actually a substantial part of my personal tarot practice, so I really can’t believe I did not flesh out that topic.

In terms of how I approached writing the book, I jumped into it right after publishing law review articles and academic legal writing, which has a very specific style that I adopted for writing a tarot book, as odd as that may sound. (In fact, the very first draft of the manuscript as submitted to the publisher initially contained citations and end notes in Bluebook format.) A lot of the issues referenced in this thread seem to stem from that particular style of writing I adopted, which may differ from what readers are more accustomed to in the writing styles previously applied to tarot books. That is another point I should have been more sensitive to and cognizant of when writing.

Also, Teheuti, while many of my correspondences are influenced heavily by Golden Dawn sourced attributions, I deviated from those correspondences in particular areas (e.g., The Magician) because the GD attribution did not resonate with me. In the final published version of the book, I explained my Earth attribution over Air, which I don’t think was in the review copy you received. My apologies: I still have to get the final published book in the mail to you. I had agreed with all of your critiques when you first e-mailed me and I made author alterations to the review copy based on your critiques. They appear in the final published copy.

As for tarot history, I hope a reader isn’t coming to my book for tarot history. That would be silly. I devoted I believe less than 5 pages to tarot history and instead, in the footnotes, referred to half a dozen or more books that the tarot history enthusiast should turn to. For all theories and the wild speculations on the origins of tarot, I did try my best to cite all sources, but the actual end note might not be immediately following the sentence containing the speculation. Instead, the citation is probably at the end of the passage, if all the contents of that passage were cited from the same source. Every origins theory or speculation I wrote about came from a specific source, which should appear in the end notes. If not, then it was an unintentional omission on my part.

Overall, I do apologize and feel bad about being annoying in the way I’ve written my views. On the historic accuracy front, all I can say is I tried my best to cite my sources and was clear that my book should never be treated as a primary source for anything history or Golden Dawn related. On the divination vs. fortune-telling front, yes, my fault for not presenting my views there better.

I also should have explained my distinction between predictive tarot and projective tarot. Predictive tarot is not rational-based per se. It is about harnessing specific metaphysical energies that go against the normal physical laws of space-time, which could result in certain karmic repercussions. That’s why I don’t teach predictive tarot. Predictive tarot does not factor in past or present variables, whereas projective tarot is a rational-based analytic exercise (at least in a way), taking into account past and present variables in an attempt to ascertain the most probable future outcome. It’s a projection of a future outcome. It only appears predictive when people behave predictably. Oftentimes a tarot reading is about guiding a seeker to behave unpredictably, so that he or she may change an undesirable probable outcome.

I am grateful that my little book incited passion, in both directions. The balanced critiques have been most helpful and formative in the way I will think about and approach future books. Thank you.
 

Teheuti

My main objective for the book is to convince someone who might otherwise believe that he or she is too rational-based to be interested in something like tarot to get interested in it, because there is great value to learning tarot for self-actualization.
I think this comes across quite well.

Another objective is to demonstrate how complex tarot is, that tarot is a subject matter worthy of serious study
Again, very clear, and, as you note the whole complexity can't really be explored in one book.

Also, Teheuti, . . .
I had agreed with all of your critiques when you first e-mailed me and I made author alterations to the review copy based on your critiques. They appear in the final published copy.
I'm glad my comments were helpful.

As for tarot history, I hope a reader isn’t coming to my book for tarot history. That would be silly. I devoted I believe less than 5 pages to tarot history . . .
Understood, but I've seen less than five pages (even just a couple of paragraphs) that were accurate and adequate and five pages that were not - there's a difference. I'm very sensitive to this since, along with others, I've spent years trying to inform authors and publishers of the real history of Tarot. It's important to separate theories with no evidence to back them from facts that are well known. As with climate change, any source with an opinion should not automatically have equal footing with experts; they should not be judged equally nor by popularity vote. BTW, I'm not against Tarot myths, they just need to be recognized as something totally different from historical fact. All the citations as to who was "speculating" may not have been in the copy I received.

Projective tarot is a rational-based analytic exercise (at least in a way), taking into account past and present variables in an attempt to ascertain the most probable future outcome.
Shouldn't the variables and probability then be apparent in the examples? Experienced readers, as noted here, have found plenty of examples in the book that could not be differentiated from predictive, fortune-telling interpretations. The majority of Tarot readers, even those who are willing to call themselves fortune-tellers take into account past and present variables when speaking of the future. It's why so many spreads have positions for the past and present in addition to the future.

Oftentimes a tarot reading is about guiding a seeker to behave unpredictably, so that he or she may change an undesirable probable outcome.
Good point.

I am grateful that my little book incited passion, in both directions. The balanced critiques have been most helpful and formative in the way I will think about and approach future books. Thank you.
What a wonderful attitude to take. I know it is not easy to read critiques, but your attitude says a lot about the thoughtful, open approach you take that is expressed so well in your book.
 

Lee

What a wonderful attitude to take. I know it is not easy to read critiques, but your attitude says a lot about the thoughtful, open approach you take that is expressed so well in your book.
I quite agree with Teheuti -- thank you benebell for your gracious remarks.
 

Barleywine

In terms of how I approached writing the book, I jumped into it right after publishing law review articles and academic legal writing, which has a very specific style that I adopted for writing a tarot book, as odd as that may sound. (In fact, the very first draft of the manuscript as submitted to the publisher initially contained citations and end notes in Bluebook format.) A lot of the issues referenced in this thread seem to stem from that particular style of writing I adopted, which may differ from what readers are more accustomed to in the writing styles previously applied to tarot books. That is another point I should have been more sensitive to and cognizant of when writing.

Your long, thoughtful reply was appreciated, but this passage really jumped out at me. I spent over 30 years as a professional technical writer, primarily in the legal area of nuclear power plant licensing. I learned to write economically, logically and to-the-point, knowing that government lawyers were on the receiving end. I've been working on my own tarot material to be self-published, and have been using the same style. I recently pulled out an unfinished manuscript of similar scribblings from the early '80s and was amused by how bombastic it is, well beyond salvaging. I don't imagine I'll have any problem with your style, although I'm still undecided about giving the book the benefit of the doubt as far as its value to me.
 

Tanga

After reading all this, I am well enabled and have just ordered the book.

Many thanks Benebell Wen!
I have already received invaluable pointers from reading through the online downloads.
:lightbulb :thumbsup:
 

foolMoon

Hi Benebell

First of all, let me congratulate you for writing a new tome for Tarot. It is always refreshing for us Tarot learners to see new books on the subject.

I do not have the book, but by reading the thread, if I may add a couple of points.

1. All good RWS and Thoth clone books need a good amount of material discussing about the Golden Dawn and Qabala, as these decks are based on / created by GD system and their ex members. I would have thought with 800 pages tome, good amount of discussion on these area would have been welcome, whether it resonated or not with you, because after all, books get written for public readers who are interested in the subject, not for the authors.

2. In my opinion, be it predictive or projective, divinatory or fortune telling, when Tarot is asked about questions we humans do not know, we are entering into the mystic world / arena looking for answers from the divine. There is no much element of rational / analytic practice inherently in all divinatory acts.

Human reasons and analysis are limited, so we are using non rational / non analytic approach for getting answers from the divine i.e. intuitions based on traditional and pictorial symbolism.

Just my 2 cents … good luck :)
 

Citrin

Benebell, thanks for the thoughtful response, it's nice to see your view on the matters we've discussed here!

My main objective for the book is to convince someone who might otherwise believe that he or she is too rational-based to be interested in something like tarot to get interested in it, because there is great value to learning tarot for self-actualization. I presumed that once a rational skeptic took the step of working with tarot, that aspect of tarot that seems esoteric or occult would be revealed through individual work. That conclusion is one reached by the individual, not one that needs to be plainly stated by my book. I was hoping that my book’s structure, from page one to the end, would be a pathway that leads an individual to draw that personal conclusion and open up the doors of curiosity to the metaphysical.
This above is exactly what I like about your approach to the tarot! Tarot is for everyone, not just one type of people, and I feel that for ages it has been reserved for just those that are "already spiritual". I think you are doing a wonderful job showing others that even the almost-skeptics can find something valuable in the cards. So I can understand your struggle trying to balance between predictive readings and "tarot analysis" or whatever we want to call it. I'm the same way, I also do readings for people asking if they will get the job, but I also spend a lot of times telling my highly educated skeptic friends about Jung, synchronicity, how the tarot is a psychological tool and not for fortune-telling, etc... And I've seen a lot of them open up their minds a little when it comes to tarot. So I can see how it was difficult to take a clear approach when writing the book.

Overall, I do apologize and feel bad about being annoying in the way I’ve written my views. On the historic accuracy front, all I can say is I tried my best to cite my sources and was clear that my book should never be treated as a primary source for anything history or Golden Dawn related. On the divination vs. fortune-telling front, yes, my fault for not presenting my views there better.

You really should not feel bad! In a book as fat as 900 pages people are bound to find something incorrect, or annoying, or weird, or anything really... I must say I'm shocked I still haven't found one single typo in there?! How is that possible?! :)

You did a great job, I think even the ones presenting critique think so, you just didn't do a "perfect job" but who could do that anyway? I've also seen that on your blog it's a bit more clear on where you stand when it comes to fortune-telling, predictions etc so it's clear you're learning having that humble approach.
 

Dark Victory '39

I love this book. I'm about halfway through and i know i'll read it cover to cover. I love the clean writing style, and i love all of the actual readings. Benebelle's reading style is v. different than mine, but like Nemia implied in an early post it's fun to read someone who's take is so different, yet clearly works for her. I remember years ago when i read that Richard Roberts book, The original tarot and you, i think? Anyway, i remembered thinking how ballsy he was for laying his readings out like that, and i think the same thing here, especially when there's so many case examples. I wasn't terribly troubled by all of the 'anti-divination/forecasting' lingo. In fact i found it refreshing to have all of her hypotheses about why tarot works. I'm an 'intermediate level' reader, but also bought a copy for my younger sister who's twenty years my junior and just starting out in learning to read the cards; she's been getting a lot out of it as well, while feeling v. empowered (she says from Wen's tone) to experiment and find what works for her. So even though it is a very confident, academic voice, it hasn't exactly been making demands about what she feels like are the 'have to's.' I too have enjoyed the unique twist of having an almost clinical-styled reader who does a lot of the atmospheric setting-up with rocks, sacred space, qi/ chi. I've been nothing but impressed.