The Book of the Law Study Group 2.21

thorhammer

Coming late again, but at just the right time, as it turns out.
Freddie said:
My honest question this: If I feel my true will is to teach and work (and feel true love in my heart for) with people who have a disabilty does this make me a weak person? I found this path later in life after many years I pursued another occupation (singer/songwriter) to no avail (worked in all the while factories instead to play the bills).
Yesterday, I was driving (plot important) to the post office when, hoofing it down the footpath on the opposite side of the road to me, I saw a dude with a wheelchair. He was loping along, supporting his weight between the handles of the chair and propelling himself with surprisingly agile strides of his legs - underdeveloped, clearly inadequate (hence the chair) though they were, here he was, running along pushing his chair. And there I was, driving. Yes, I was ashamed. And humbled.

How dare we feel sorry for those termed "disabled"? What arrogant superiority is implied! If your desire to work with the disabled stems from a need to be needed, a power play, or superiority complex (and only you can know this, when you truly look inside yourself), then yes, it makes you a weak person. But if not, then no; helping these people to reach their potential in the face of a society which disregards their input, thereby putting yourself in a position of adversity, makes you a strong person.
Curtis Penfold said:
I'm also in this Intro to Ethics class. We've been talking about the view that we need to do what's best for the most amount of people. Is that part of these new ethics of Thelema?
IMO, absolutely not. I'll cut out the profanity, but you can imagine . . . Stuff 'em. Let 'em find their own Wills. We're all on our own, and wielding power with the consequence that some are damned and some pandered to (democracy) is, again IMO, decidedly un-Thelemic. That is the cultural norm that has given rise to the perpetuation of life in the face of death (life-support machines keeping the terminally ill alive at massive energetic and financial expense) and what I personally see as the corruption of the gene pool with the less-than-fit (easy for me to say, being a reasonably fit individual in most respects :D).

Just some thoughts, not fully formed, on the role of democracy in the development of the current state of social affairs: In handing over power to the few, the many have sacrificed their own power to fight for their desire, their Will. Now, mathematically, this means that the disputes are resolved peacefully and usually without loss of life. But what if we took that whole voting paradigm out of it, and pitted the sides against one another in pitched battle? The many would slay the few; the Will of the many would prevail. Same result, but without the simmering dissent and the need to keep on voting.

I'm not advocating anything here; just following what, to me, is a logical train of thought. And damn, it feels good to say these things that have been in my head for so many years . . .

\m/ Kat
 

Curtis Penfold

Did Crowley ever talk about population control, or is this a modern application of his views?

Guys, this all sounds like doing the best for the most amount of people.

I must have my Osirian faith, because I don't see over population as a problem. Keeping the terminally ill alive? Stephen Hawkings is kept alive by machines, but look at all the contributions he's giving.

I mean, I'm not saying you need to do what feels good, like that's always the right thing. I'm just saying, there are logical and productive reasons to keep people alive.
 

thorhammer

I don't know if AC had views on population control. I'd be fascinated to read them, if he did.

I don't know how you're coming up with the best for the most amount of people - I tried to directly oppose that in my post and I'm out of ways to make my point *le sigh* Sorry. Maybe someone else can springboard?

Personally, I find it truly astonishing that you can't see a problem with over population, but I'm not going to lambast you for that. Instead, I'll ask intelligent questions in the spirit of mutual respect (Namaste, DWTW). First, do you mean that you don't think the planet's over populated? And if not, if you acknowledge that it is, how is that not a problem?

Your example of one man being kept alive by machines and still making valid contributions does not make a case for keeping vegetatively ill people in comas alive. To extend the argument, too . . .

Oh, boy, I'm gonna get myself in trouble here . . . people who are genetically infertile or whose physiology means they are unsuitable to reproduce . . . are encouraged (at massive energetic and financial expense, again) to pursue fertility treatment . . . why???? To muddy the gene pool? No, that's not a consideration, they don't think that far ahead. No, they just want a baby. Adoption isn't an option - see, it's not *theirs*, it's not pandering to the basic genetic yearning for self-replication. Neither is transforming that basic need to nurture into something more productive, like teaching or mentoring or any other basically creative pursuit.

Oooh, stopping now. Getting angry. (Not at you, CP, it's just this subject gets me riled.) But I think this has bearing on this verse, so I hope it stays.

\m/ Kat
 

Curtis Penfold

thorhammer said:
I don't know how you're coming up with the best for the most amount of people - I tried to directly oppose that in my post and I'm out of ways to make my point *le sigh* Sorry. Maybe someone else can springboard?

Well, I'm just wondering what other ethical reasoning he could give.

If you're trying to say we should find ways to control population, it means your considering what's best for the majority over what's best for the few.

Maybe I did misunderstand you. It seems like Crowley wasn't a fan of any political system.

thorhammer said:
Personally, I find it truly astonishing that you can't see a problem with over population, but I'm not going to lambast you for that. Instead, I'll ask intelligent questions in the spirit of mutual respect (Namaste, DWTW). First, do you mean that you don't think the planet's over populated? And if not, if you acknowledge that it is, how is that not a problem?

No, I don't believe the planet can become over populated. This could be because I lived in the country for a big portion of my life. I travel a lot, and I see a lot of land that isn't being cultivated. Maybe I don't understand the concept of overpopulation.


thorhammer said:
Your example of one man being kept alive by machines and still making valid contributions does not make a case for keeping vegetatively ill people in comas alive.

Sometimes, people come out of a coma. I mean, you can't simply say, "If a person is in a coma that appears to be long lasting, the best thing to do is pull the plug." That's just a tough thing to do, not just emotionally, but logically. We're never sure that a coma is the end.

thorhammer said:
Oh, boy, I'm gonna get myself in trouble here . . . people who are genetically infertile or whose physiology means they are unsuitable to reproduce . . . are encouraged (at massive energetic and financial expense, again) to pursue fertility treatment . . . why???? To muddy the gene pool? No, that's not a consideration, they don't think that far ahead. No, they just want a baby. Adoption isn't an option - see, it's not *theirs*, it's not pandering to the basic genetic yearning for self-replication. Neither is transforming that basic need to nurture into something more productive, like teaching or mentoring or any other basically creative pursuit.

See, that's what I'm talking about. This is an example of people desiring something, but you feel its wrong for them to do it because it could hurt society as a whole.

I think I need to understand how Crowley thinks we should judge ethics.
 

Grigori

Curtis Penfold said:
I mean, I'm not saying you need to do what feels good, like that's always the right thing. I'm just saying, there are logical and productive reasons to keep people alive.

I agree, and I think Thelema does also. But I don't think your examples fit this pattern exactly. It's an offensive thing to say in our Osirian society (which rather proves the point), but Stephen Hawkings is an example of someone who is a valuable investment; Harry the bus driver is not. Sorry, but that is the logic. Hawking's is not an example of sacrificing for the sake of doing the "right thing", it's about the payoff, i.e. his work. Spending hundred of thousands on the off chance that Harry will wake up and recover enough of his faculties to go back to work is not a good bet. I feel like a bad person for even saying that, but it's certainly logical.

Curtis Penfold said:
It seems like Crowley wasn't a fan of any political system.

I wonder about feudal systems? This seems fitting to me somehow. Be lord of your own domain (in the external world as well as the internal) so much as your strength enables you, and concede to someone who is stronger where needed.
 

thorhammer

Grigori said:
I agree, and I think Thelema does also. But I don't think your examples fit this pattern exactly. It's an offensive thing to say in our Osirian society (which rather proves the point), but Stephen Hawkings is an example of someone who is a valuable investment; Harry the bus driver is not. Sorry, but that is the logic. Hawking's is not an example of sacrificing for the sake of doing the "right thing", it's about the payoff, i.e. his work. Spending hundred of thousands on the off chance that Harry will wake up and recover enough of his faculties to go back to work is not a good bet. I feel like a bad person for even saying that, but it's certainly logical.
It's just the social conditioning making you feel bad, pay no attention ;) Yes, I agree with you here - as Aeon said earlier, Thelema is elitist, and if an accident makes you "unfit" . . . *le shrug* That sucks, but there's another incarnation beyond all that machinery where you can have another go.
I wonder about feudal systems? This seems fitting to me somehow. Be lord of your own domain (in the external world as well as the internal) so much as your strength enables you, and concede to someone who is stronger where needed.
This reminds me of his treatment of Atu 0 and the Courts in the Book of Thoth. Especially the (great) lengths to which he goes to elaborate upon the mythology of the Fool. That would shed some light here, IMO. And lead us on to the beginning again, as 22 leads back to 0 :)

\m/ Kat
 

Grigori

thorhammer said:
It's just the social conditioning making you feel bad, pay no attention ;)

Yep, serves no purpose, is just there to control my actions by making me feel guilty. Pfft to that :D

thorhammer said:
This reminds me of his treatment of Atu 0 and the Courts in the Book of Thoth. Especially the (great) lengths to which he goes to elaborate upon the mythology of the Fool. That would shed some light here, IMO. And lead us on to the beginning again, as 22 leads back to 0 :)

Oh I like that, thanks Kat!

Book of Thoth said:
The king was therefore not king by inheritance, but by right of conquest. In the most stable dynasties, the new king was always a stranger, a foreigner; what is more, he had to kill the old king and marry that king's daughter. This system ensured the virility and capacity of every king.
 

Curtis Penfold

Can somebody please define what is right and ethical according to Crowley. How do you know if something's right?
 

Always Wondering

I don't know what was right for Crowley. Frankly, it doesn't matter to me. Sometimes I don't know what is right for me. Sometimes it is just about making a difficult decision and understanding myself for it.

I think society is a double edged sword, raising children really brought that home. They wanted friends, needed an education and so on. They had to learn how to function to have these things. I often wanted a better society for them. But short of keeping them in cave all I could do was nurture their independence.

AW
 

Always Wondering

Curtis Penfold said:
I think I need to understand how Crowley thinks we should judge ethics.

Well, what have you read of his already? Perhaps we could make some recommendations.

AW