The Star/Le Toille - Contrasting the Dodal and Conver

Moonbow

The differences in the Star card seem, at first, to be quite subtle. I find them intriguing and they have set me thinking alot about this card.

Firstly I notice that the Dodal card shows her to have a strange navel, is it an eye or mouth? The Noblet shows her navel as a star, which has also been taken on for the Rodés/Sánchez deck. She also looks, to me, as though she is wearing a headband in the Dodal and this also is depicted in the Rodés/Sánchez deck. The Conver clearly shows her hair flowing freely, as it also does in the Noblet (below).


dodal_XVII.jpg
<-- Dodal | Conver -->
conver_XVII.jpg


17-letoile.jpg



In the Conver she appears to be fully in the water (or on it!) but the Dodal shows her partly on land. I think of her as bathing her feet because of the position that she is in. Also her face is white in the Dodal and the Noblet, but is flesh coloured in the Conver.

The tree on the right of the card also differs and looks like a flame in the Dodal.

These are a few differences that strike me immediately, without looking into the cards deeply, but perhaps are worthy of some discussion. On comparing these with other decks and particularly the Nostradamus, (which robert tells me is an altered Jean Payen deck), the differences become even more interesting, as the Nostradamus shows a tail on the central star (comet?), and therefore the bottom two stars on the right have 'dropped' into a different position. I wonder why they weren't just left out of the scene altogether unless there is a purpose in there being eight stars. Perhaps because XVII = 1+7 = 8. I don't know anything about this deck or where it fits in to the history of the Marseille decks and I suspect its not a card for comparing in an historical sense, more an observation of an interesting difference.
 

Lillie

Wonderful!

I noticed that there is no bird on the Noblet, unless I am not seeing it wherever it is hiding.

Also, all 3 cards showthe big star with 8 primary rays, and 8 secondary rays,
But the smaller stars in the Dodal and Conver have either 7 or 8 rays (Five 7-rayed stars in the Dodal, and 2 in the conver). But in the Noblet they all have 6 rays.
I don't know wether this has any numerological import or not.

And clearly, on the Noblet, her face is a different colour from her body.
 

le pendu

Here is the "Tarot de Nostradamus" and a Jean-Pierre Payen:

nostradamus_XVII.jpg
jppayen_XVII.jpg


Referring to the Nostradamus, Kaplan in the Encyclopedia of Tarot, v III, says it was “partly copied from the tarot made by Jean-Pierre Payen around 1760 and partly redrawn from a seventeenth-century paper found in a chateau in France.”
 

le pendu

From the "Cary Sheet", a sheet of uncut cards dated circa 1500.

carysheet_XVII.jpg


The Cary Sheet is historically very important. It is the earliest example of Marseilles type patterns ever found. It is about 150 years older than Noblet, 200 years older than Dodal, and 250 years older than Conver.

I wrote a bit about it here:
http://www.tarothistory.com/cary.html

A good thread on it:
http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?p=678716#post678716

Andy's Playing cards comments:
http://l-pollett.tripod.com/cards69.htm
 

jmd

Wonderful to also have these cards and discussion up!

First additional point is that even on the Conver, the lines show her to be kneeling on some kind of platform. The colouration certainly make it appear that she is on water, but not the lines.

This seems to be consistent with the Cary Sheet version, and remnants of this 'platform' also appear on the Payen and the Dodal.

Another version of XVII the Star of the Conver is the wonderful deck obtained by Kenji. The lines of the card make it clear that she is kneeling on a platform, with much of the blue colouration being over land (or so it seems).

converK_XVII.jpg


Conver (Kenji's copy)​

What is also fascinating is that whereas on the Cary Sheet the person could very well be masculine (Aquarius?), she clearly is - or becomes - feminine by at least Noblet.

Also of note is the bird that appears on most decks, seated upon the top of the tree.

Also of what is of note (and discussed in terms of possible iconographic connection in the XVII thread) is that there are seven stars around the central one (and I am here disregarding the 'Nostradamus' Payen alteration) - though again it is worthy of note that the Cary Sheet (and some others) have less.
 

Lillie

On the cary sheet, there seems to be something either behind his/her head, or some kind of hat.
does anyone else see that?

Also, in the water, here is something sticking up that looks a little like a fish tail.
Is it? or is it something else?
 

jmd

The fish tail is certainly something that appears there... it was also a little discussed in either one of the threads on the Cary Sheet, or a thread on XVII - cannot recall.

I have at times wondered whether the 'fish-tail' was not either a carving slip, or because the image rendition is of relatively low quality that we are seeing something that in the original may not actually be there - not sure at all.

I suspect the 'hat' you see is the back portion of one of the containers s/he holds upon the shoulders.
 

Rosanne

Oh Wow I love the image of the Cary sheet. Am I right in thinking that it would be reversed in printing or is that already reversed? It is the only card I think that is facing this way? Your showing is better than in the Kaplan anyway lol. I love the star in the naval of the Dodal, but I think it is the clumsiest of all the cards woodcutwise/colouring. Are there seven stars as usual perhaps Pleaides? In the Cary is that Sothis/sirius (8 points?) Oh so many questions hehe ~Rosanne
 

Rosanne

Sorry folks...

Bother I did not see the other thread LeToille and my questions have been answered in that. All except which direction 'she' faces and why. Will be more observant next time. ~Rosanne
 

Moonbow

Thanks for all these wonderful scans everyone! I am really enjoying them. :D

I wondered if she were pregnant as she appears to have a rounded belly in most of the cards except the Noblet. The Dodal navel also looks to me as though it could have a male triangle inside. It seems her navel was something worth emphasising in some decks, but why?

The Cary sheet also looks as though there is a possible headband in place. Also it shows a star on her right shoulder whereas in some decks the star is her navel.