'Tarot' meaning 'hole-maker'?

kwaw

euripides said:
sure, fair point... but I still feel the original premise of 'Tarot meaning hole-maker' is just a bit much of a stretch.

Well the title of the thread has become something of a misnomer as we have gone on to discuss various different possibilities [eg as meaning fool, and the others]. Initially I thought 'hole-maker' too as being a bit of a stretch, but as pegging-holes, scoring points and relation perhaps to fool as cypher I wouldn't rule it out completely - perhaps there is a connection too with production techniques such as punching patterns, the term was also used for a tool to engrave in stone. Personally, while I favour some possibilities as being the more plausible I don't feel there is a strong enough evidential base to dismiss most of the various options completely; without further evidence to the contrary they all remain speculative options, even the most [and possibly even least] plausible remain 'on the cards' (as far as I am concerned at any rate).

Kwaw
 

kwaw

A summary:

In the 15th century 'Steele Sermon' the madman/fool is 'nulla', worth nothing. The association between the cipher '0' and the 'good for nothing' or 'worthless fellow' is a long one. As I note on my blog here:

http://journals.aol.co.uk/kwaw93/MyDovemysimpleone/

and thread here:

http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?t=65123

Criminals were branded with the 'theta' like symbol used to denote zero on the abacas [the zero is marked on some 13th century variations of the Gerbert style of abacus], this marked them as good for nothing or worthless fellows; in 13th century Paris a worthless fellow or good for nothing was called a 'cifre en algorisme, that is, an 'arithmetical nothing.' [Ifrah - Universal History of Numbers].

The cipher 0 represented the empty space, or 'hole', in the sum. This concept of 0 as 'hole' is emphasised on a sandbox counting board, where a moved token, usually round [and usually minted along with coins], makes a hollow or hole in the sand. There are in fact punning references to the cipher 0 as 'hole' to be found in literature.

Thus, it is possible, that 'Taroccáre' possibly meant 'to play the holemaker - that is the 'worthless fellow/cipher', by which action we are excused from following suit or trumping, and thus 'make a hole' in the sequence of the run.

It is possible that the Italian word Tarocchi derives from a French word, as -cco and -cchi are prefered Italian suffixes for words imported from France.

Originating in the French Tarault for a 'holemaker' (a cipher or worthless fellow), becoming in Italian tarocchi, 'taroccare' became by association more simply 'to play the fool'.

Kwaw -
 

Fulgour

Taro = Manna? (no beans for Pythagorus!)

Modern hybrid plants are much different than
the TARO plant which provided humans food.

It is like a bread-fruit, the food of humankind
since before recorded history, past reckoning.

Thus Taro would have a possible meaning of:
home cooking, the bread of life, nourishment.

A far cry from The Royal Road and such stuff,
and more in keeping with our ancient heritage.
 

Sebastien Michel

I hope that I don't repeat something that someone said before but I learned a few years ago that :

Torah can be theorical or pratical (written or pictured).

When you put the two Torah together you obtain the plural : TAROHT...

Friendly,
Sebastien
 

venicebard

Sebastien Michel said:
I hope that I don't repeat something that someone said before but I learned a few years ago that :

Torah can be theorical or pratical (written or pictured).

When you put the two Torah together you obtain the plural : TAROHT...

Friendly,
Sebastien
You amaze me with another gem, Sebastien. I would not doubt at all, now that you point this out, that tarot is at least meant as a pun to include this meaning. (I was never satisfied with the 'torah spelt backwards' theory, but this relieves us of any necessity for that, n'est ce pas?) Certainly it is pictorial, and in addition it relates to written Torah in that the trumps are the 22 letters. [They are in bardic numerical order [H=0] A E I O B M P F K G T D N L R S U Q Y St Aa, bardic Aa being teyt/theta elsewhere and F being replaced by samekh in the Hebrew sequence, which is: [cheyt] alef heh zayin ayin beyt mem peh samekh kaf gimel tav dalet nun lamedh reysh shin vav qof yod tzaddi teyt.]
 

Sebastien Michel

venicebard said:
I would not doubt at all, now that you point this out, that tarot is at least meant as a pun to include this meaning. (I was never satisfied with the 'torah spelt backwards' theory, but this relieves us of any necessity for that, n'est ce pas?)

Well don't take it for sure, I am not sure for myself but it certain that when I read this info, I was surprised...

I don't automaticaly refer to the Torah when studying the Tarot but like you said, it have many elements inside.

I think that the Torah was a part of the influence who create Tarot but not the only one reference.
 

venicebard

Sebastien Michel said:
Well don't take it for sure, I am not sure for myself but it certain that when I read this info, I was surprised...

I don't automaticaly refer to the Torah when studying the Tarot but like you said, it have many elements inside.

I think that the Torah was a part of the influence who create Tarot but not the only one reference.
Well, we veer off-thread perhaps, but let me say that since Tarot of Marseilles embodies the exact structure of Jewish Kabbalah -- 22 letter-trumps, plus 10 Sefirot in each of 4 worlds, plus the 4 letters of the Name in those 4 worlds -- even though it was undoubtedly Qabbalah (what Kabbalah is the flotsam of) as understood by Gnostic 'Christians' (I put in single quotes because a Gnostic is quite different from what is normally called Christian), and since the flowering of gnosis that produced both Qabbalah and the later TdM involved contact with Judaic 'mysticism' (actually Gnosticism) in the Provence-Languedoc of the Troubadours, that is, by the British bardic corpus (and its adherents) that arrived there alongside Arthur and Tristan, the issue is not in doubt as far as I am concerned, though you are certainly free to differ. Anyway, thank you, as it is like a big light being turned on in my understanding of the historic process that produced Tarot of Marseilles, which I take to be the original, of course, against all the Italo-centric voices hereabouts. (Sorry about that long, involved sentence at the start.)
 

kwaw

Sebastien Michel said:
I hope that I don't repeat something that someone said before but I learned a few years ago that :

Torah can be theorical or pratical (written or pictured).

When you put the two Torah together you obtain the plural : TAROHT...

Friendly,
Sebastien

I think but not sure that the plural of Torah [law] is Torot [laws] spelt tau - vau - resh - vau - tau.

See for example of usage, exodus 18:20; Leviticus 26:46.

Kwaw
 

jmd

I thought it was more simply TORT (Tav, Vav, Resh, Tav), and that is the way it occurs (prefixed with the particle Heh=the) in Exodus, for example.

...nonetheless, a fascinating and instructive, even if not historically correct, connection.
 

kwaw

The oral and written are considered as the two halfs of the one torah; I have consulted with hebrew speaking [jewish and gentile] kabbalists and none of them are aware of a plural form of torah being used to represent both, so think it fair to state that such usage, if it does or ever did occur, is rare.

I had wondered if considered as a 'pair' whether the dual/pair ending 'im' might be used - but I am told this would create confusion with the masculine plural 'tvrim' - 'turtledoves' [ perhaps we could consider the written/oral torah as like a pair of loving turtledoves?].

As a feminine word the plural of torah [law] is torot. I have seen torot spelt two different ways:

tau-vau-resh-vau-tau
tau-vau-resh-tau

Also need to remember that in French the final T is probably silent and so sounds as in various spellings such as tareaux like 'taro' not tarot. Although among early french spellings it was written 'tarots', not sure whether the 'ts' would both be silent too or the final s would bring into pronunciation the final t. I seem to recall someone who speaks french [ross?] writing that it was still pronounced 'taro'?

If the word tarot was associated with torah, considering the first usage of the word is not attested before the first decade of the 16th century I would think it more historically plausible that such would be related to the late 15th century christian interest in kabbalah than to the origins of the cards [whether in 15th century Italy or 12th century provence].

Kwaw