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Your opinions on Crowley?

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kwaw  kwaw is offline
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I don't believe it! People writing bad stuff about Uncle Al? Some people just don't like pussy cats!

Instead of reading about Uncle Al, why don't you read something by Uncle Al. He wrote so prolifically I can't think what to recommend. Perhaps a sort of compendium to start with, like Portable Darkness edited by Scott Michaelson [despite the 'darkness' of the title, it is full of light].

Kwaw
Top   #11
SunriseDesire  SunriseDesire is offline
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crowley


driley, that's a nice way of seeing it.

well didn't like pussy cats, or frogs, or...shall I go on? I would like to read something by him. It isn't as if I am closed to giving the guy a chance; I never close myself off to people like that. People or ideas. So thank you for the rec, I will look for that at the library
Top   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Babylon_Jasmine
He was also a Heroin Addict,
What is the relevance of that?
Does someones drug of choice make them a good or bad person?
It is an artefact of time and place that makes Heroin illegal and therefore demonised.
Wou;d you bring up someones drinking to blacken their name?
Possibly, but probably less so, as drink is an accepted drug in our society.

However, I would rather spend time with a heroin addict than an alcoholic.
I have never know anything like alcohol for bringing out the violence in people.
Top   #13
spiral  spiral is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Driley
Everyone knows the negative stuff, so I won't give an example of that.
I haven't read anything by Crowley which is "negative stuff". What things are you referring to? I'd quite honestly be fascinated to pick up these works which are negative-by-consensus and judge for myself.
Quote:
Lady Harris was the creator of the deck.
Well... kinda. She painted it, certainly. She was the artist who had to interpret and make a synthesis out of the multitude ideas that Crowley threw at her for each card. The art is hers - the magick is all Crowley. Obviously the line isn't as clearly defined as all that, such art IS magick really, but if we were judging proportional contributions then the weight falls on Crowley's side.
Quote:
In Crowley's book on the deck, the introduction implies that he frequently made her paint and then discard an image eight times or more before being satisfied. There is no evidence that this is true.
Well in the letters between Crowley and Harris it is clear that this process happened with many cards. The only source I have for the letters is DuQuette's "Understanding Thoth", but it is made abundantly clear that the repainting of cards was not an unusual thing. Adjustment is one that springs to mind as a card which DuQuette himself highlighted as undergoing just this re-drafting process. (Along with Harris' plea that she not be made to redo the swords since she found them distressing).
Quote:
And the writing is, in my opinion, deliberately difficult.
I disagree. I think if you're looking for a tarot deck which has neat little soundbites for each of the cards then Thoth isn't for you. Crowley paints each card (textually) with huge sweeping brushstrokes and fully expects that you have a grounding in many different systems - astrology, alchemy, Egyptian and Greek mythology; even the I-ching, although that has a somewhat bolted-on feel, for me. I have to admit that the first time I read that book I struggled to pull the descriptions of each card together into a cohesive whole in my mind; such is the depth of the symbolism in each. But given work, each has flowered and I understand the thing at work behind each of the cards. Don't get me wrong - still a LOT to learn about the whole system, but then that is exactly the point of it...
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spiral
; even the I-ching, although that has a somewhat bolted-on feel, for me.
I feel that way as well
I feel that the I ching references were 'fashionable' of the period, as the brits went through an Oriental love affair at the time. The way Crowley writes about them dont seem to flow like all the other subjects he writes about for each card, and it seems he didnt really know that much detail about the I Ching's background and culture, like someone else had given him the correspondences? The Thoth is to be the grand tool to connect with your Angel, so i can understand he wanted to reunite all the divination forms. Just some are united more than others hehe

Blessings,
Sezo
x
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Quote:
Originally Posted by inanna_tarot
I feel that way as well
I feel that the I ching references were 'fashionable' of the period, as the brits went through an Oriental love affair at the time. The way Crowley writes about them dont seem to flow like all the other subjects he writes about for each card, and it seems he didnt really know that much detail about the I Ching's background and culture, like someone else had given him the correspondences? The Thoth is to be the grand tool to connect with your Angel, so i can understand he wanted to reunite all the divination forms. Just some are united more than others hehe

Blessings,
Sezo
x
The correspondences he developed himself I think. You'll find looking in his diaries he consulted the Yi King often, frequently on a daily basis; he was very influenced by and a great admirer of Taoism. He wrote his own little booklet of Yi King interpretations of the hexagrams, relying on the Legge version I think.

Kwaw
Top   #16
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lol, shows what i know

but it does seem (IMO) a forced connection, the way its written in the BOT doesnt seem to flow. Personally the jury is out on the importance of the I ching to the thoth, though it might have been another area of study that Crowley was interested in. Again it could be another door that the Thoth could open for me, an area where I will find wisdom like the Thoth introduced me properly to the kabbalah.
I find thats another reason why I like Crowley because for many he acts as a catalyst of study and perspective

Blessings,
Sezo
x
Top   #17
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Your Opinion on Crowley ?


Whatever we may think of Crowley, and I think if we added up this thread we might get some truth to tell, he was a pioneer in consolidating different esoteric systems. His trying to link I Ching and Tarot was remarkably futuristic -- we're working far more in that direction now than then (Haindl Tarot, Buddha Tarot, Tao Oracle, etc).
Top   #18
wandking  wandking is offline
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If you want to read Crowley online...


Try this link: http://www.the-equinox.org/ The Equinox was his bi-annual magazine where he revealed secrets of the Golden Dawn. As for those who say Crowley enjoyed his reputation, I've read letters written by him that lead me to believe that was certainly not always the case. Many of the letters dealt with him attempting to gain membership in a recognized branch of Freemasonry, which according to Masonic records he failed to do.

Crowley was also kicked out of France, which couldn't have been very pleasant. His interpersonal relationships, at least with fellow occultists, never lasted very long. Even as a child, temperamental Aleister was not easy to manage for his mother, Emily Bertha Bishop, who came from a devout religious background. Aleister grew up in a staunch Protestant Evagelical household. After retiring, his wealthy father took up the practice of preaching at a fanatical pace. Daily Bible studies and private tutoring were mainstays for young Aleister. Instead of childhood efforts indoctrinating their son into Christianity they only served to provoke skepticism in the youth. As a child, constant rebelious behavior displeased his mother to such an extent she would chastize Aliester by calling him "The Beast" an epithet that he eventually adopts with zeal. Six emerges as his favorite number and some sources claim at times he signed his name as 666.

In studying Crowley, seperating myth from fact is the most challenging aspect because the man is a legend in a literal sense. This brings to mind an obscure quote by Crowley that he offers as a guidline in reading occult literature:

Crowley writes: “There must have been a time in the life of every student of the Mysteries when he has paused whilst reading the work or life of some well-known Mystic, a moment of perplexity in which, bewildered, he has turned to himself and asked the question: Is this one telling me the truth?"

As for the Book of Thoth deck, very few Tarot packs can compete with the beauiful artwork of Lady Frieda Harris. I feel no collection could possibly be complete without this influential contribution. On a year to year basis, in modern times it is bought more than any other deck and may even eventually outsell the RWS, which still holds the record of the best-selling deck of all time. I personally have trouble reading with it because of the court cards: No kings; no pages, instead the deck offers Prince and Princess cards.

I'll close with another poignant quote by Crowley but don't let these two quotes mislead you. His writings rage from a level of lucidity bordering on brilliance to what appears to be drug-induced ravings.

Crowley writes:

“Primitive Christianity had a greater adaptability than any other contemporary religion of assimilating to itself all that was more particularly pagan in polytheism; the result being that it won over the great masses of the people, who then were, as they are now, inherently conservative.” He then goes on to state: “Truth is Truth; and the Truth of yesterday is the Truth of to-day, and the Truth of to-day is the Truth of tomorrow. Our quest, then, is to find Truth, and to cut the kernel from the husk, the text from the comment.”

“The science of learning is how not to say ‘Yes’ until you know that it is YES, and how not to say ‘No’ until you know that it is NO. It is the all-important word of our lives, the corner- stone of the Temple, the keystone of the arch, the flail that beats the grain from the chaff, the sieve through which Falsehood passes and in which Truth remains. It is, indeed, the poise of the balance, the gnomon of the sun-dial; which, if we learn to read aright, will tell us at what hour of our lives we have arrived. Through the want of it kingdoms have fallen into decay and by it empires have been created; and its dreaded foe is of necessity "dogma." Directly a man begins to say ‘Yes’ without the question ‘Why?’ he becomes a dogmatist, a potential, if not an actual liar. And it is for this reason that we are so bitterly opposed to and use such scathing words against the present- day rationalist when we attack him. For we see he is doing for Darwin, Huxley, and Spencer what the early Christian did for Jesus, Peter, and Paul; and that is, that he, having already idealised them, is now in the act of apotheosising them. Soon, if left unattacked, will their word become THE WORD, and in the place of the ‘Book of Genesis’ shall we have the ‘Origin of Species,’ and in the place of the Christian accepting as Truth the word of Jesus shall we have the Rationalist accepting as Truth the word of Darwin. What of the true man of science? say you; those doubting men who silently work in their laboratories, accepting no theory, however wonderful it may be, until theory has given birth to fact. We agree --- but what of the Magi? answer we; the few fragments of whose wisdom which escaped the Christian flames will stand in the eyes of all men as a wonder. It was the Christians who slew the magic of Christ, and it be, if they are allowed to live, the Rationalists who will slay the magic of Darwin. Four hundred years hence perchance will some disciple of Lamarck be torn to pieces in the rooms of the Royal Society by the followers of Haeckel, just as Hypatia, that disciple of Plato, was torn to pieces in the Church of Christ by followers of St. John. We have nothing to say against the men of science. We have nothing to say against the great Mystics. All hail to both! But followers who accept doctrines of either as dogma we pronounce to be a bane, a curse and a pestilence to mankind.”
Top   #19
thantifaxath  thantifaxath is offline
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Blimey no shortage of opinion on Crowley here ...You can't knock a man for charisma and cracking set of cards ....And everybody is guilty of 'sinning' at some point its what makes us so interesting ...Crowley just had his 'sins' printed for all to enjoy!..
Top   #20




 


 


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