What is the Y on the magician staff

brightcrazystar

LRichard said:
In my opinion, the deck would not have been a commercial success were it not for Pixie's artistic contribution and her designs for the Minors. If she really died in poverty, it would seem very unjust.

If, after much disillusionment, she needed something more stable than the turn-of-the-century magical societies to hang onto, then Roman Catholicism may not have been the worst choice. Even Waite, in one of his books, described himself as a Uniat Catholic.

Her personal effects were sold to cover debts to grocers and merchants. She was likely interred in an anonymous grave and no one yet knows where.

This deck would not have become popular at all if Waite did not sieze the chance to publish the deck in the wondow where most decks were out of print. He schmoozed and made it happen. I do not think he could have made it happen had the deck not been possessed of her artistic genuis. I also think had it even been published, it would have never gotten the acclaim it recieved, and most likely the world would still be mostly in the Marseilles era of Tarot. It is a good era, mind you, but one that is drastically different than this deck and the ones after.

Regarding Waite and psychics - he held some were uncommonly gifted, and was of the opinion not everyone is capable, or some are more suited to such operations. I do not have an opinion of everyone, as I am not so bold as to speak on behalf of the capacity of everyone. Each for himself or herself. Every man and every woman is a star.

Richard

lucifall said:
Thanks Brightcrazystar,
I like to read what you write, but i have to dose and absorb it homeopatic.
It should be nice to read your findings about Pam's minors, related to book T!
Thanks for being here, and show us knowledge we should not be able to get otherwise.

Luci

Those who are disturbed by Brightcrazystar's posts may have forgotten what this forum is all about: the symbolism and details of the RWS deck. S/he is not telling us how we should view the RWS, but rather how it was conceived and how it may be interpreted. I sometimes sense a defensiveness by some people who may be intimidated by Brightcrazystar's expertise.

Richard

Every man and every woman is a star. This is the key to Crowley's statement: Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law. It is usually taken to mean to do whatever the heck you want to do, but that misses the meaning. Planets (stars) generally move in orbits which do not collide with other stars, so doing what you truly will cannot coillide with the ambitions of others.

re-pete-a

LRichard said:
You may be correct, re-pete-a. However, I don't think anyone has claimed that knowledge of certain magickal traditions makes one a better Tarot reader. This thread is about certain details in the Magician card in the RWS deck, not card reading.

Anyhow, Waite didn't originally conceive of this deck as a divination tool. It was designed for philosophical use by Golden Dawn initiates.

They did a bad job of keeping them for inhouse use. It didn't take too long before they were made available for public use.

Your right about this topic being about the imagery on the card in question and I did digress with an opinion that was not on topic.

BrightCrazyStar handled it gracefully. I'm humbled by his gracious answers.

so back to the imagery .
Pixie is proven good enough with her fine detail abilities to draw a hawk ,eagle or dove at her whim.
I concur with Teheuti that the image in question resembles a dove. A bird of the air .

Her modernized copies of the Majors of the Tarot De Marcelle's lacked some of the hermetic symbolism .

It must also be taken into consideration that in her time and her chosen religion that a woman with child was an outcast . Not considered to be partner material by a man. Her social standing would have been very low indeed.

lucifall

2 kind of lelies

I like to add something on the symbolism of the flowers pictured on the RWS magician.

On the Magician card, are pictured roses and lilies.
In fact there are 2 kind of lilies:
http://img526.imageshack.us/img526/5870/acd14a9dcfe0aa70d1d551a.jpg

So there are 3 different flowers in stead of two:
-The lily of the Valley(only 1 in the picture) is pictured under the bird, a dove, as Mary suggests.
-The "normal" lily is pictured under the water-symbol
-The rose, under the table, is pictured under the flames)
So the three pictures on the table all have there own flower under them.

Waite states in the PKT that the flowers are flos campi and lilium convallium, The rose of Sharon and the lily of the valley. 2 flowers are mentioned. The Roses and the (big) lelies. Two kind of flowers are mentioned and three are pictured.
(like Waite mention 4 streams on the Ace of Cups, in stead of five)

As a gardener of my own biological food, i know the lily of the Valley well, it has a gorgious smell, really heavenly. So also this nice flower grows in my garden, so i can take this smell with me to my home,as they keep on smelling in a vase.
Although i knew this flower well, always was my focus,concerning flowers of the Magician, on the bigger lily and the roses.

Until Teheuti mentioned that the Bird is a dove.
Then i recognised the Lily of the valley, which is pictured under the dove.

Brightcrazystar mentioned Mercury in Taurus.
This little flower, The Lily of the valley is connected with Mercury in Taurus

The lily of the valley is called Convallaria Majalis. Majalis or maialis means "of or belonging to may".
Old astrological books place the planet under the dominion of Mercury since Maia was the mother of Mercury.
In France 1 May is the Day of the Lily of the Valley. The second decan of Taurus, Mercury in Taurus, known as The week of the teacher and Virgo Decante is from 1 May- 10 May.

The lily of the valley is also known as our lady's tears since legend tells us that the flower came into being from Eve's tears, after she was driven with Adam from the Garden of Eden.
Another legend teach they are Mary tears, when she cried at the crucifixion of Jesus in Catholicism.
"Our lady" is the virgin Mary.
Above The Lily of the valley is a dove.
A dove we find back on the Ace of Cups, where the Dove is flying into the cup of M - Mary.

Also this little flower, the lily of the valley is considered the sign of Christ second coming. The power of men to envision a better world was also attributed to this plant.
Other names are: May Lily, Lily constancy, ladder-to-heaven, male lily.
In the language of flowers the flower signifies the Return of happiness.
As herbal medicine it is believed to strengthen memory, to restore speech.

Luci

brightcrazystar

The dove symbology... as it is on my Lamen, I have to say what I can.

That is beautiful and informative. I could add counter argument, especially on the nature of the Dove and Eagle being synonymous in the works of certain People and in certain regards... but it would lessen the very beauty I appreciated to detract. I also have no way of verifiably knowing that was the intent. I do also see it possible, and was told, that he obscured even this information from Pixie Smith, whom he was even yet vigilant to not violate his Oaths of secrecy to Adepthood with. He could have told her it is a dove and to draw one. It is by accounts of the Zelator Rite, supposed to be Nashir.

Why should one cut a flower and keep any other from it's fragrance?

I said my peace, and read yours.

--- Here is more on the Table, from G.D. Tradition ---

It is called the Table of Shewbread, and is representative of the Rose of Creation. It looks like this in the Zelator Rite, according to Pat Zalewski.

http://www.greatdreams.com/sacred/transformation/shewbread2.jpg

Here is a diagram of what the Magicians Table represents in A.E. Waite's Magical Tradition, of which I was an full Initiate of a different representation. You can see a rough draft of it in the Cipher Manuscripts. It is The Rose of Creation as it is revealed to the Zelator. The focal images are The Kerubs, which were gilt around the edges of the Table, and are envisioned by the Adepts as pouring into the Sides of the Altar of the Universe. These sides are represented by the four colors of Makluth, though to the Outer Order, they were yet black. It was considered improper for G.D. Non-Adepts to access these powers, for they were still undergoing the Transformation in the Outer Order and could be "tempted to evil" or even possessed.

The Dove itself is the entire Rose of Creation, and therefore the whole of the Table would represent the Dove, the Messianic YHShVH, if you will. God, made man, to redeem the world he created. So, Waite may have told Pixie to draw a Dove where rightfully an Initiate would assume the place of Nashir, to symbolize that to his fellow Initiates, with the knowledge of the Adepts... but by no means did he let her decide to just devise an image of her own liking to put on the Table. I think that reasoning is a suitable inclusion of every side of the story that is closer to the evidence, and the speculation based in evidence.

But ultimately, I did never answer to A.E. Waite in examination for progressing through the grade of Zelator Adeptus Minor, nor did he to me.

re-pete-a

As far as I know the rose of creation is a simple complete circle with a cross inside. Known as the 'rosy cross' the cross of the rosicrucians, the cross representing the combined male and female.
Creation was depicted as a completed circle with a small dot at it's center.

Also the Lilly used at the funeral rites represented resurrection and renewal via the vulva and the penis being together in the one flower.

How does the lilly of the valley fit into this symbolism. What does the Lilly represent in these depictions.

Teheuti

“So, virtue and beauty, the lily and the rose, really are, in essence, inseparable, dependent each upon the other, in a sense, BOTH married to G-d. The rose brings us to G-d, the immanent, the lily brings us to G-d, the transcendent. And when we do "GOOD WORKS", we bring G-d, the transcendent, INTO manifestation (Waite, The Way of Divine Union).

Here's how Florence Farr (for a while chief of the London Temple of the GD) explained the rose and lily as parallel to sun and moon imagery.

“The sun and moon are the celestial luminaries, but the central ones are a fire hidden in the earth or nitre, and an airy lunar nature in the water. These two mixed natures are known to us as the desires of the flesh [rose] and the phantasies of the imagination [lily]: in their transmutation by consecration of the desires [rose] and purification of the thoughts [lily], lies the pathway to wisdom. The will [rose] and the imagination [lily] of an adept are symbolized by the Urim and Thummin of the High Priest.” [Euphrates or the Waters of the East]

Both of these quotes also apply to the Hierophant and the Two of Wands where the rose & lily also appear together.

lucifall

re-pete-a said:
the vulva and the penis being together in the one flower.
How does the lilly of the valley fit into this symbolism.

http://img233.imageshack.us/img233/7896/544a96873cf3ef165d3813b.jpg
vulva and penis in the one flower: how it fits in the floral life of
the-lily-of-the valley.

brightcrazystar said:
Why should one cut a flower and keep any other from it's fragrance?

I own a hedged fruit-vegatable-herb-flower garden, as it is in my country. Everything what grows there I took care for, from the beginning to the end.
I use everything also in tintures,cremes, teas, medicine, and yes also in my vase at home in the middle of town, in my appartment. As a reward for hard work in my garden of Eden. My visitors at home enjoy the fragrance then, as somehow, a visit on the garden is somehow difficult for them?.

The table of shewbread in your link is food for thought. Thanks!

Luci

lucifall

Teheuti said:
“ The rose brings us to G-d, the immanent, the lily brings us to G-d, the transcendent. And when we do "GOOD WORKS", we bring G-d, the transcendent, INTO manifestation (Waite, The Way of Divine Union).

The rose brings us to G-d : the rose under the table is under the fire symbol
the lily brings us to G-d the transcendent: The big lily under the water symbol
G-d the transcendent into manifestation: the lily of the valley under the dove
This fits in my opinion.

Luci