God and Qabalah

billv

Having been studying Qabalah for a little while now, it seems that "God" or "YHVH" (as in the Old Testament God) is pretty apparent in the structure. Personally I like most of the ideas presented around Kaballistic thought, but not the idea that this is really just a system based on old biblical texts or myth. I realize that the Kaballah and it's varients are from a Jewish heritage, but do they presuppose a belief in YHVH? Maybe this is a silly question at this stage. I know there are references to many angelic and elemental spirits as well. Are these references just allegorical, to personify aspects of mind, or are they to be taken as objective, existing entities?

For example, in Robert Wang's book he talks about "suspending disbelief" when it comes to these things in his book, yet later he seems entrenched in the ideas surrounding deities, archangels, etc...

I'm really having a difficult time with this as I am agnostic with a strong lean toward outright atheism. Yet, I still see value in the system from a psychological/self-development perspective. I also remember Alistair Crowley talking about how it is best to use the religion you grew up with as the basis for working in magickal endeavors, even if you had renounced it's dogma/beliefs because it provides a model for study. This is confusing to me. Do you have to believe in God to be successful in Kaballistic/Qabalalistic studies?
 

jewishbohemian

no, but if you study Cabala you will come to find the Creator beyond creation; I too am an atheist when it comes to religion and the gods they pray to.
 

rebecca-smiles

Well one alternative system is the Inner Temple by RJ Stewart (his book 'the miracles tree' and the merlin tarot).

This is the system i am examining now, (along side the sefer yetzirah to compaare with jewish kabbalah), because it is My heritage; a celtic western mystery tradition. I have no idea how effective it is as a kabalistic path, as i am just getting into it, and have no previous experience of the kabbalah.

It doesn't presuppose a divine being. Or angels. I'm sure that if you hunt around there will be a system that appeals to your sensibilities, depending on how important is, and how you define 'authenticity.'
 

Patrick Williams

Bill, of course you can use Qabala as a psychological/self-development system without the religion behind it. It may be more of a struggle for you that it might to someone who was steeped in and adhered to Abrahamic values, but that doesn't mean that it won't be effective for you.

The question that leaps immediately to mind is this: With all the various psychological/self-development systems that are out there, many of which do not have a religious component, what makes you want to practice a system in which you must constantly struggle to balance your disbelief with that system's predisposition to belief?

Why not pick a system that more closely matches you and your beliefs (or lack thereof) to begin with?
 

billv

Patrick Williams said:
The question that leaps immediately to mind is this: With all the various psychological/self-development systems that are out there, many of which do not have a religious component, what makes you want to practice a system in which you must constantly struggle to balance your disbelief with that system's predisposition to belief?

Why not pick a system that more closely matches you and your beliefs (or lack thereof) to begin with?

I think my desire to follow the Qaballistic route stems from it's connection to Tarot, and because of the wealth and depth of information around that system. Also, I find the Tree of Life and paths fascinating. I have already learned much from my study. A less religiously-slanted system would probably be a more comfortable fit for me, tho, because I keep bumping up against the religious connotations associated with Qabalah.

Regarding my beliefs, I'm not a hard/fast atheist, although I'm very entrenched in the "I don't know" realm, and have doubts. Maybe my searching within Qabalah has been an effort to try to come to some conclusions around it.

Bill
 

mollymawk

If it helps any, biblical Hebrew is almost entirely verbs. Hard to wrap your head around if you're unfamiliar, but true.

Yud-Hey-Vav-Hey - sort of all that existed/exists/will exist/can exist/could exist - or just plain 'existence' is a better English translation than 'God', with all the connotations people attach to that word--I seldom know of what they speak when they say it.

If you're coming to it from a Christian background, it's a lot harder to grok. But it may be worth it. Coming to tarot from a Jewish background is a little weird in other ways, because tarot was invented by Christians and is full of Christian symbolism.

But it still works.
 

rebecca-smiles

I know where you are coming from Billy! and the kabbalah is such a wonderful system with nothing really that much like it. Trying to find an adequate 'alternative' doesn't really cut it, eh? like trying to re-invent the wheel!
 

Patrick Williams

billv said:
I think my desire to follow the Qaballistic route stems from it's connection to Tarot, and because of the wealth and depth of information around that system. Also, I find the Tree of Life and paths fascinating. I have already learned much from my study. A less religiously-slanted system would probably be a more comfortable fit for me, tho, because I keep bumping up against the religious connotations associated with Qabalah.

Regarding my beliefs, I'm not a hard/fast atheist, although I'm very entrenched in the "I don't know" realm, and have doubts. Maybe my searching within Qabalah has been an effort to try to come to some conclusions around it.

Bill

I do understand, Bill. If the Qabala speaks to you in your Tarot work, then just disregard the portions that you find objectionable (not the right word, I know, but it's early & I haven't even finished my first cup of coffee). Just trying to jam these two systems together is hard enough. There are many correspondences, but there are thorny differences, too.

I also teach Reiki and tell my students (over and over again) that it is impossible for me, because of who I am, to segregate my own spiritual bent from the practice. But because I'm not trying to convert anyone, I tell them to just overlook the portions that challenge their own belief systems. Reiki will still be just as powerful whatever they believe, even if they don't believe.

And the same can be said for Qabala. It is a tool for obtaining enlightenment that is made up of metaphors and allegories. And whether Qabala matches your own spiritual beliefs or not, it's still a useful tool. Try looking at it that way-they are metaphors and allegories. The fact that they may or may not meet your own beliefs exactly doesn't diminish their usefulness. You already have a powerful transformational tool in a box right in front of you: the Tarot. Honing the Tarot with the whetstone of the Qabala works nicely, but they are both merely tools.

"Honing the Tarot with the whetstone of the Qabala ?" I don't believe I just typed that. :lol: I really need some more coffee. Anyhow, Bill, I think you get the point. You can use the Qabala, the Tarot or even the Bible for transformation without 'believing'. Just keep foremost in your mind that they are 'tools'.
 

mollymawk

And if you really go down the biblical kabbalistic road, you'll find that they're all stories and allegories, but they say so much more than the literal interpretations.

I have the same problems teaching--but biblical stories looked at in that light, and the Hebrew words--once you understand what they're actually saying--illustrate some parts of kabbala so well.

So--God ends up being a placeholder word, and I explain that I use the stories because those are the best ones I know. That's all. Divinity is something slippery enough to define for yourself, much less anyone else, and I'm not trying to offend or convert.
 

billv

You all are full of great advice on this, and I thank you! What is most interesting to me about Tarot is that of all things on this earth that are touted as "magickal", the Tarot is the only one that has really proven itself to me in that regard. As most here would probably attest to, there are so many synchronicities and incredibly accurate messages that flow from it's use that it becomes hard to deny that something extra-natural or (and I use this word hesitatingly) supernatural is going on. After it happens over and over again you just can't deny that it does have it's own energy and power.

I think that my study in Qabalah has been to try to understand and get to know that power. It has been a worthwhile study so far. I feel it has helped me understand myself better. Sometimes the religious connotations do get in my way, but I am willing to accept them as allegorical or as personifications of energy that really have nothing to do with biblegod, who I find intellectually and morally disgusting - probably because it is obviously a magnification of man's emotions and biases into the form of a deity, written to control and strike fear. (Just my comments, not trying to convince others of my views on this!)

Anyway, my hunch is that the power of Tarot comes from the same pool of energy that the Kaballah/Qabalah represents. For this reason I feel it's a good thing to keep studying. Plus, it's addicting! :)

Bill