Newbie to Thoth needs advice

ravenest

smw said:
I might be getting muddled myself, I thought that Ravenest had already clarified that Thelema can be viewed as a religion but it doesn't have to be. Bringing in Jung and other connections to help get an understanding of what that magical philosophy might be about. X

Eta I just looked back through the thread and the original statement was IMO Thelema is not a religion. Maybe that's where wires started getting crossed.

To be clearer. I do not use Thelema as a religion . IMO it isnt a religion and its most religious aspects seem pretty clearly that Crowley was joking and making fun (unless his spiritual ego ran away with itself for a while ) but I think not ... it seems more a 'spiritual prank' in the style of Nasruddin, which were enacted as a defence against spiritual ego ( which Crowley tagged as one of most dangerous threats, the weapon against spiritual ego, he said, was an ability to laugh at one's self and sacred cows.

But I also stated pretty clearly about the Gnostic Mass ... where thelema is celebrated in a liturgical expression. Some people go to Gnostic Mass as a religious expression, some go to partake in a magical rite.

ravenest

foolMoon said:
I have a General introduction book about Jung but it does not have anything about magic, religion, or philosophy, so I am wondering if he had done anything on those areas himself. It has following chapters.

The man and his Psychology
Archetypes and the collective unconscious
The stages of life
Psychological types
Dreams
Therapy
Jung's alleged anti-semitism
The summing up

I know it had been a trend to adopt Psychological approach even in Astrology recently, but I didn't agree with them. I was more on the side of religious divination approach - divination messages are from God.

But in thelema "there is no God but man "

ravenest

Richard said:
Commentary on The Secret of the Golden Flower
Introduction to the I Ching
Psychology and Alchemy
Mysterium Conjunctionis
Psychology and Religion
Psychology and the Occult
Synchronicity

Oh, come on now Richard .... dont spoil his selective quoting of stuff he has not yet read

smw

foolMoon said:
I have a General introduction book about Jung but it does not have anything about magic, religion, or philosophy, so I am wondering if he had done anything on those areas himself. It has following chapters.

The man and his Psychology
Archetypes and the collective unconscious
The stages of life
Psychological types
Dreams
Therapy
Jung's alleged anti-semitism
The summing up

I know it had been a trend to adopt Psychological approach even in Astrology recently, but I didn't agree with them. I was more on the side of religious divination approach - divination messages are from God.

this is an interesting snippet about his view of God.

“It is only through the psyche that we can establish that God acts upon us, but we are unable to distinguish whether these actions emanate from God or from the unconscious. We cannot tell whether God and the unconscious are two different entities. Both are border-line concepts for transcendental contents. But empirically it can be established, with a sufficient degree of probability, that there is in the unconscious an archetype of wholeness. Strictly speaking, the God-image does not coincide with the unconscious as such, but with this special content of it, namely the archetype of the Self.”

“God is reality itself.”

https://thesethingsinside.wordpress.com/2013/01/07/carl-jung-says-god-is-reality-itself/

If you are interested in his (Christian) religious discussions ( I haven't braved them yet) in his book Aion he discusses at length Christ, A symbol of the Self, gnostic symbols of the self, the fish in alchemy etc...

he is very complex.... you'll have to read him yourself I guess to see what you think.

foolMoon

ravenest said:
So, you know purport to speak qualified on what you have not read ?

Again, I ask as I did before .... have you read Liber Aba Book 4 ?

Who is saying Thelema cannot be a religion ... besides you ?

It isnt a 'clear cut issue' Thelema is a complex system that uses eclectic symbology on a variety of levels dealing with a variety of issues .

I have outlined how some of those relate to philosophy but you seem to be ignoring certain answers .

I don't think you need to read every books under the sun. Life is too short for that, and there are just too many books kicking about, and they are not all that bibles and treasures as you making out.

If you are a spiritual, and have your own world views, you should be able to form your own opinion on these books by skimming them over rather than reading them from cover to cover.

You would only read books if you think they are really important to your interest rather than just read them because someone mentioned or quoted them.

I will read certain books if it strike me that it had sources I am after, but not because just its written by so and so, and it's popular or whatever.

You did say Thelema is not a religion but it is a system of magical philosophy. That's how clarification process started. If you deny this, you must have edited your own post

I am open minded about whether Thelema is a religion or not, and just wanted hear various opinions about it.

foolMoon

smw said:
this is an interesting snippet about his view of God.

https://thesethingsinside.wordpress.com/2013/01/07/carl-jung-says-god-is-reality-itself/

If you are interested in his (Christian) religious discussions ( I haven't braved them yet) in his book Aion he discusses at length Christ, A symbol of the Self, gnostic symbols of the self, the fish in alchemy etc...

he is very complex.... you'll have to read him yourself I guess to see what you think.

This very interesting. As I said I never used to take Jung seriously, but he seems written good stuff on religion God and self, consciousness and unconsciousness ... Some will have relevance with Thelemic topics, I gather.

But I am still not sure jung's relevance to clarification process on ravenest's statement that Thelema is not a religion but a system of magical philosophy.

smw

ravenest said:
IMO it isnt a religion and its most religious aspects seem pretty clearly that Crowley was joking and making fun

I don't see that clearly, but what do I know..... I do however see that you like to joke and make fun

Michael Sternbach

foolMoon said:
This very interesting. As I said I never used to take Jung seriously, but he seems written good stuff on religion God and self, consciousness and unconsciousness ... Some will have relevance with Thelemic topics, I gather.

But I am still not sure jung's relevance to clarification process on ravenest's statement that Thelema is not a religion but a system of magical philosophy.

I would say Thelema is what you make it.

Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law.

smw

ravenest said:
But I also stated pretty clearly about the Gnostic Mass ... where thelema is celebrated in a liturgical expression. Some people go to Gnostic Mass as a religious expression, some go to partake in a magical rite.

hang on...that sounds very religious at least serious for some. How does that fit with joking and making fun? the gnostic oto mass I watched suggested larking about wouldn't go down well at all....

Richard

foolMoon said:
.....I am open minded about whether Thelema is a religion or not, and just wanted hear various opinions about it.

I don't see that it matters in the least. Whether Thelema is a religion depends entirely on how one defines religion. It is nothing more than a semantic issue.

Newbie to Thoth needs advice

ravenest

ravenest

ravenest

smw

foolMoon

foolMoon

smw

Michael Sternbach

smw

Richard