Big question, but basic...What is the difference between OTO and paganism?

Is OTO considered a pagan organization? This is pretty basic, but sometimes the lines get blurred for me where ceremonial magic and such like are concerned. Thelema is polytheistic, is it not? Would that make it pagan?

It depends on what one considers the gods to be. I mean, are they real personalities out there somewhere, or just symbols or metaphors for something else, maybe forces of nature or aspects of a person's inner self? I tend to take the view that the gods are not literally personalities apart from myself, so I don't really consider myself a pagan, but I also think that some people who do call themselves pagan feel the same way as I do about these things. I would guess that there are all kinds of Thelemites, including atheists.

Carla said:

Thelema is polytheistic, is it not?

Click to expand...

Thelema can be viewed as monotheistic, polytheistic, and pantheistic. There's room for each of these angles. Take your pick.

One good way to describe Thelema might be Monistic-polytheism. Or how about Polytheistic-monism?

I was waiting for someone to answer this, as my thoughts were muddled, but LRichard and Aeon said it well. My understanding of Thelema is that there aren't one or two (or three!) gods but that every single person is the god, despite the inherent contradiction in that sentence. Not a god, but the god, who creates their own Creation through their subjective angles and Wills. "Every man and every woman is a star" proclaims the absolute importance of everyone and everything, as well as emphasize one's own orbit and purpose. In addition, as old-Aeon religions focused on the Dying Sun God (Jesus, Osiris, etc.) this is a statement that affirms you are the ever-living Sun.

I am not a Thelemite (nor am I an atheist, I'm not much of anything, really) but I don't see Nuit, Hadit and Ra-Hoor-Khuit as the "traditional" kinds of gods one "prays" to (although one does "love" them, again the contradiction). They are forces, basic and fundamental rules of nature. In my (again, very limited) understanding, Thelema, on the contrary, tries to distance itself from the "slave mentality" of appeasing this jealous god or the other. It isn't just "carry out your True Will;" you should carry out your Will because you are God, and your will carries the weight of Divine decree (as long as you carry out your True Will and nothing else, as anything less would be to drag your spirit through the mud). Carry out your divine decree, and the full force of the universe will be at your back; don't carry it out, and you encounter stiff resistance.

I'm sure I got this all wrong, though. People who are more familiar with the subject will be able to explain it better.

I don't think OTO can be considered pagan, but many members would call themselves pagans. Or, at least they would have when I was involved in the 1980s.

OTO - the main one, the one I presume we are talking about - is a fraternal organization for the advancement of the Law of Thelema. The grades teach metaphorical life-lessons and some magick, but there is no creed beyond Thelema, "Do What Thou Wilt". Nothing constains a person's conscience, as Aeon said, you could be a monotheist, a polytheist ("pagan"), atheist, or you own flavor of philosophy or theology.

All very interesting answers. I bring this up only because I was speaking to a pagan friend, who mentioned the recent media coverage of Peaches Geldof's interest in OTO, and the mispresentation of the OTO. So I said, 'Time for Pagan Federation to step in and defend!' because I guess I thought the Pagan Federation defended the position of all sorts of fringe/non-mainstream/whatever you want to call it faiths or philosophies, etc. But she, 'The OTO isn't really pagan, and they're big enough to defend themselves.' Which made me go, hmmm. So are they pagan? Why did I lump them in with pagans? Where can I go to see what others think of this...and here I am.

Carla said:

All very interesting answers. I bring this up only because I was speaking to a pagan friend, who mentioned the recent media coverage of Peaches Geldof's interest in OTO, and the mispresentation of the OTO. So I said, 'Time for Pagan Federation to step in and defend!' because I guess I thought the Pagan Federation defended the position of all sorts of fringe/non-mainstream/whatever you want to call it faiths or philosophies, etc. But she, 'The OTO isn't really pagan, and they're big enough to defend themselves.' Which made me go, hmmm. So are they pagan? Why did I lump them in with pagans? Where can I go to see what others think of this...and here I am.

Click to expand...

You probably lumped OTO with paganism because various gods in the Egyptian pantheon may be alluded to in its ceremonies and in Thelemic literature.

Ross gave a good answer.

There is a distinction between OTO and Thelema. One does not excusivly (edit: Ha! EXCLUSIVLY) represent the other.

Firstly, it depends on your definition of 'pagan' ... that can be very wide. Officially it used to be anyone who was not a Christian (even Muslims !), before that it meant 'country dweller' or rural person - I think.

In my expereince the OTO did not consider itself Pagan, although many in the OTO were or seemed to have pagan affiliations. THis was more evident in some countries or localities. It was not that evident in Australia, there seemed to be a distinction between the two outlooks of 'paganism' and 'ceremonialists'. ??? never really got that ... pagans use ceremony.

I did write up an article on the percieved difference once, cant even remember who for or what happened to it.

If one wanted to (as some do) and trace the OTO back through 'mythological time' to the Templars ... one of their originating lads was Hugh de Payans (Hugh of the Pagans) but thats prob apocraphal.

Here ... a few years back there was even a bit of a war between some; pagans were seen as trippers and folk magic practioners without logic and science and 'magicians' were seen as anal, male boys club ritualists divirced from mother nature.

Our local OTO group had pagan members and we shared ritual with them ...(but we were 'country dwellers' - out of the city ... and I would say we were the better for it. Some of those rituals and events we did together were some of the best I have ever encountered and many people, from diverse backgrounds in that group said the same thing.

Thelema may be polytheistic, but that doesnt mean the OTO is. The teachings of the OTO are based on (or actually have been adapted to) Thelema but that is not advocated dogmatically. In my experience any one of any religion can be an initiate of the OTO, belief in Thelemic principles is not a requirement of membership ( although a non-eclectic viewpoint might make it rather difficult as the thelemic principles are introduced in the OTO 'instruction')

I have not heard of this new OTO public focus bouught about by the little Geldorf.

Tell me more.

Oh dear! Here we go;

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/a...-cult-thats-snaring-stars-Peaches-Geldof.html

Peaches OTO tat ... how come a girl/woman with so much bling and 'social cred' and presumibly quiet a bit of $$$$ gets an OTO tat that looks like it was done by a stoner in jail.

That is one of the worst tatts ... looks like she did it herself ... more a case of 'self-harm'.

I dunno ... it just looked pretty bad and unprofessional to me.

Ammusing article though ... peachers gets curious, looks into OTO AC and a bit of kabbalah ... and the news goes ; "This girl cant make up her mind; first Satanism, then Judaism .... what next!!!!"

ravenest said:

I have not heard of this new OTO public focus bouught about by the little Geldorf.

Tell me more.

Click to expand...

I fail to understand why I was told the Israeli chapter of the OTO dealt only with those already members, while 'Peaches' can join (if she really is a member) and can use Twitter to talk about books that are "super interesting."

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbi...-followers-learn-Order-Oriental-Templars.html