The Thoth Deck

This deck has always been my absolute favorite deck. I used the Rider-Waite Smith deck when I first learned Tarot, but the Thoth deck looked and felt more familiar (and at the same time more strange, but strange in the way that my own dreams and nightmares are strange, you know?)

I am also pretty fond of Aleister Crowley and his long, sad, and wonderfully weird life. I like his obsessive interests, and the sumptuous gloss of hedonism (especially in his youth) upon which he rested his purportedly monstrous ego. I like his companion book to the Thoth Deck.

Nevertheless, I do feel a little oppressed by the overabundance of symbolism and articulate meaning in the deck. The Thoth Deck does not seem flexible enough to tolerate a variety of personal association and interpretation. Has anyone else had this experience?

I have such a wonderful relationship with this deck, and I'm sure it will always be among my favorites (it taught me so much!) I would love to know more about others' relationship to this deck.

Eden

cheimonette said:

......Nevertheless, I do feel a little oppressed by the overabundance of symbolism and articulate meaning in the deck. The Thoth Deck does not seem flexible enough to tolerate a variety of personal association and interpretation. Has anyone else had this experience?......

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Well, as an accurate model of the Tree of Life, the Thoth is flexible enough to embrace the entire cosmos, both macro and micro, so I reckon it should do okay for fortune telling. However, if the truth be known, I still use the baby starter deck which I first purchased around 1970, the Rider-Waite. I like the pictures a lot. It reads like a comic book.

I agree with LRichard. The Thoth is a depiction of the Tree of Life, supplemented by ideas and mythologies from around the world. It is true, on one hand, that the cards are saying something specific. As a pictorial depiction of the Book of Law, this would have to be the case. On the other hand, all those symbols, ideas, attributions and Qabalaistic placements denote quite abstract concepts best understood through meditation and reflection on them. Indeed, so abstract are they, that each understands the language it speaks as they will (unless they aren't abstract, but I simply see them as such, which would actually prove my point). Personal interpretation, or perhaps I should say investment, is not only helpful, but absolutely necessary.

What one doesn't find in it, though, is New Age empowerment, trite platitudes about positive thinking or anything like that. Not that I'm implying you do so, but many readers do try to overlay that kind of thinking onto it, and while I would never tell anyone what to do, I do feel that's missing out on a lot.

cheimonette said:

.......I am also pretty fond of Aleister Crowley and his long, sad, and wonderfully weird life. I like his obsessive interests, and the sumptuous gloss of hedonism (especially in his youth) upon which he rested his purportedly monstrous ego. I like his companion book to the Thoth Deck.

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If you haven't already read it, I would highly recommend Perdurabo by Richard Kaczynski. I'm on page 116 of 562, so far it seems very objective, neither demonizing nor idolizing AC.

Nevertheless, I do feel a little oppressed by the overabundance of symbolism and articulate meaning in the deck. The Thoth Deck does not seem flexible enough to tolerate a variety of personal association and interpretation. Has anyone else had this experience?

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It is not an overabundance. The symbolism itself is what gives the Thoth its universality and flexibility (as well as its coherence), but it is structured flexibility, not divinatory anarchy. The illustrations may reflect concepts from the Book of the Law, but the Law itself is the ultimate liberation, not restriction in the usual sense. The Hebrew letter and astrological and elemental attributions mostly come from the GD Tarot source, Book T, which also accounts for much of the symbolism of the Rider deck as well as P. F. Case's B.O.T.A. and other HOGD inspired decks.

Hi Eden, I'm somewhat of a novice with Thoth but you know when you just click ... that's how I feel even though so much of it goes right over my head. The questions that Thoth raises for me always lead to interesting, if not down right diverting, places. More and more I'm finding that Thoth is very forgiving of my naivety acting more like a guide on this journey. I have to admit to being quite protective of my Thoth Deck(s) and prefer not to use them when I'm reading for other people. I only use 2 other decks; Nefertari's Tarot for readings with others and Liber-T for others and sometimes myself.

If you've not seen the Liber-T deck you might find it curious. I'll say no more.

As for Mr Crowley, well he is a source of endless fascination and speculation. I wish there were more like him today. Our world needs more people who challenge accepted beliefs and values.

XpS

closrapexa said:

What one doesn't find in it, though, is New Age empowerment, trite platitudes about positive thinking or anything like that. Not that I'm implying you do so, but many readers do try to overlay that kind of thinking onto it, and while I would never tell anyone what to do, I do feel that's missing out on a lot.

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I agree. The positive thinking New Age angle has crept into more than a few decks, and it always has the effect of shutting me out emotionally (positive thinking never really feels like real life. It feels more like a cartoon.)

The Tree of Life symbolism (which I see as a centerpiece to the Tarot deck and a foundation for the multicultural mythological spirituality Mr. Crowley also utilizes) is probably why I love this deck so much. I have a background in the study of Qabalah (and now in Sufi mystical traditions as well; I spent last summer in Israel + Palestine synthesizing these two wonderful traditions out of their shared historical evolution, actually), and I find the Tree of Life to be a richly meaningful approach to the Tarot for me.

(And thanks, LRichard, for the book recommendation. I just picked it up!)

cheimonette said:

The Tree of Life symbolism (which I see as a centerpiece to the Tarot deck and a foundation for the multicultural mythological spirituality Mr. Crowley also utilizes) is probably why I love this deck so much. I have a background in the study of Qabalah (and now in Sufi mystical traditions as well; I spent last summer in Israel + Palestine synthesizing these two wonderful traditions out of their shared historical evolution, actually), and I find the Tree of Life to be a richly meaningful approach to the Tarot for me.

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Visit me the next time you visit (;

Apart from anything else, though, one important thing to remember is that one does not absolutely need to study the occult to understand Thelema (whether or not you choose, of course, to follow it). Crowley himself says something to that effect. While both the deck and the book deal in a very specific message, like LRichard pointed out, that message is liberty, and it is part of that liberty to find out for yourself what that liberty means for you (sorry for the convolution). It is a far freer deck than, say, the RWS that has a seemingly far more restrictive agenda.

As for the Tree of Life... a source of constant amazement.

cheimonette said:

This deck has always been my absolute favorite deck. I used the Rider-Waite Smith deck when I first learned Tarot, but the Thoth deck looked and felt more familiar (and at the same time more strange, but strange in the way that my own dreams and nightmares are strange, you know?)

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Oh yes ... I know

cheimonette said:

I am also pretty fond of Aleister Crowley and his long, sad, and wonderfully weird life. I like his obsessive interests, and the sumptuous gloss of hedonism (especially in his youth) upon which he rested his purportedly monstrous ego. I like his companion book to the Thoth Deck.

Nevertheless, I do feel a little oppressed by the overabundance of symbolism and articulate meaning in the deck. The Thoth Deck does not seem flexible enough to tolerate a variety of personal association and interpretation. Has anyone else had this experience?

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Mine has been the opposite I suppose; I had to spend a lot of time becoming flexible enough myself to tolerate the 'overabundance of symbolism and articulate meaning in the deck'. Not surprised it isn't flexible enough for you though, I checked your profile; artist, dancer, motorcyclist, ariel acrobat ... (plus your other skills ! Gosh - what a woman! - just add Martial Arts and make those motorbikes on road, old style, heavy industrial thumpers and ..... ahem! Ravenest! Concentrate ON the topic )

cheimonette said:

I have such a wonderful relationship with this deck, and I'm sure it will always be among my favorites (it taught me so much!) I would love to know more about others' relationship to this deck.

Eden

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Long story; I make it brief.

Interested in 'occult' from an early age, seemed intrinsic. Started to go to the central library at about 15. they had good occult section with a good range of Crowley Books. Branched out from there to Golden dawn, Hermeticism, etc etc. Found a Thoth deck around age 17. Found the OTO later in life and joined and passed through the ranks, 'retired'. Always had eclectic beliefs and systems (like Thoth), forayed into many areas (Tibetan Buddhism, Baha'i {Local Spiritual Assembly Chairman / scripture reader at Temple} OTO {Admin / Oasis Master/ Initiator} Sufism {Initiate in tradition of el Hallaj and devotee of Naquashbandi system}, etc. etc. Yet always found Thoth helpful and somehow relevant and a constant 'travelling companion' (but also spent time without it - gave it away but the very same deck returned to me years later).

The more I grow and develop the more I see within this system.

LRichard said:

If you haven't already read it, I would highly recommend Perdurabo by Richard Kaczynski. I'm on page 116 of 562,

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Gosh! Are you? How did you get in the book? Did you know Crowley? I knew you were old LRichard but that old ! ?

ravenest said:

Gosh! Are you? How did you get in the book? Did you know Crowley? I knew you were old LRichard but that old ! ?

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It's magick, ravenscrust. I conjured a wormhole in spacetime.