Do you parot or read cards?

EarthFaery

Depending on the reading, I will go just on the pictures on the cards, and not so much what they mean a lot of times the situation is just like it is in the card, like facial expressions, physical things and actions.
My first deck was rws, the lwb is so...blah, and so contridictary, I didn't know what to choose most of the time. I ended up getting big books of all colors, I didn't learn anything more from them, matter of fact I was more confused.
The best way to learn is to personally experience each card, we all react to situations differently, so I suppose we will have our own little twist on what each card means. I think everyone has cards they'll never fully understand, especially ones we can't relate to, so somtimes I guess we have to take someone else's word for it.
I feel like I wasted a lot of time with books, Although I still take a peek if I'm stuck on something:)
 

The crowned one

valis said:
That really gets to the heart of something that's been nagging at me. If tarot can take any projection we throw over it, then what's the point in studying the meanings of the symbolism? And if there's no point to the symbolism, why bother at all? Tarot obviously is a system for self-reflection/analysis/divination, and that implies that the symbolism carries a standard meaning. It's apparent even to a beginner that the Major Arcana carries more portent than the Minor Arcana- it says so in their names. So at some point, codified symbolic meaning must supercede personal interpretation.

Or am I missing the entire point? :p

There is in the majors a whole story based on icons and archetypes and therefore are more rigid in their interpretations. The minors and court cards are wide open within their confines( oxymoron ;) ) for divining to me. Off topic but does anybody meditate on the pips? I never have, just the trump cards.

I will give you a simple example of why symbolism is important and precise. If I say "vase" everyone here who reads this word will have their own interpretation of it...big /small tall /short blue /yellow etc. If I draw it and add something for scale we all get the same meaning. The symbolism in the Trumphs some believe, and I have not written this idea off, lead to greater handshakes between the three levels of consciousness. That is worth meditating on.
 

firemaiden

Using the cards to point to a pre-written meaning in another book is probably very close to the way cards were read in the beginning. That is Bibliomancy, using cards to choose the passage. Similarly, reading with the Little White Book is what I call "micro-blanco-bibliomancy". It can be a form of divination but it is not divining with cards.

As for myself, I would love to say that I read just with the cards, however, that would be dishonest. Much much more comes into play, of course.

When I read tarot cards, yes I focus primarily on the images. I like to think of the cards as jumping off points for free-associating. I usually do mine the images on the cards for every scrap of possible meaning that I can find. I like to chew the meat off the bones very very slowly, and then suck out the marrow. The images offer both literal interpretations, and rich metaphors, and very often both levels operate at once.

But where do the interpretations really come from? I spent more than ten years buried underground in a major University creatively interpreting the images and metaphors in texts of French Literature; I have studied mythology and semiotics, art history, medieval history, linguistics, anthropology, psychology etc.; I have delved deep into literature in many languages, and I also have a very broad liberal arts background. So it would be quite unfair of me to say that I derive my interpretations from the cards alone. In fact, I have right here in my own brain, a vast and fuzzy jumble of knowledge to draw on, stored in rusty cabinets suffering from water damage and mined by rodents.

In addition to that, I tend to consult outside sources at the slightest provocation, following the absurdest whims. For example in the last reading I did (for Indigo Rose - with the Universal Fantasy tarot) I got a hunch the image (it was the six of cups) had something in common with the dredging operation that was happening in the harbor outside my window. I had no hesitation in googling "dredging" to learn more about what it is, and even quoted a passage from Wikipedia in my reading.
 

rebecca-smiles

The crowned one said:
I will give you a simple example of why symbolism is important and precise. If I say "vase" everyone here who reads this word will have their own interpretation of it...big /small tall /short blue /yellow etc. If I draw it and add something for scale we all get the same meaning.

But even when you just say 'vase' we know what object you mean, for what purpose.

Naming something or depicting something in itself guides thought down certian avenues. And even when drawn to scale, that meaning isn't as fixed as we would like it to be; some people may hate vases, others love them.

The problem with symbols isn't their meaning but how we respond to that meaning, or the symbols strongly represents something personal and in a different context to the meaning intended.

I think learning what the symbols mean is part way to overcoming these glitches, because although it can also be very good to give our own meanings, by learning them we have a strong base to work from.

And what if the sitter insists the symbol in the card means something other than our own personal interpretation? do we go with that? surely their input is equally important as our own personal slant on the cards? symbols are significantly more objective than two people looking at the cards subjective ideas, a middle ground. For me, it offers more assurance i'm not just seeing what i hope or fear to see in these pictures.
 

EnriqueEnriquez

rebecca-smiles said:
The problem with symbols isn't their meaning but how we respond to that meaning, or the symbols strongly represents something personal and in a different context to the meaning intended.


Exactly!

Meaning is something you propose. You cannot impose it. Then, you will work with the feelings that your proposed meaning evoke in the person you are reading for. Is a dialogue, because Tarot is more useful if we understand it in the context of a relationship.

The other thing about symbols is that individual meanings may have very little significance. Just like when you interpret a dream you need to understand the whole sequence, and not just one element; when you look at the cards you have to be aware of the relationship between all the cards on the table. Sometimes, the cards having meaning isn’t as important as the cards making sense.
 

The crowned one

rebecca-smiles said:
But even when you just say 'vase' we know what object you mean, for what purpose.

Naming something or depicting something in itself guides thought down certian avenues. And even when drawn to scale, that meaning isn't as fixed as we would like it to be; some people may hate vases, others love them.

The problem with symbols isn't their meaning but how we respond to that meaning, or the symbols strongly represents something personal and in a different context to the meaning intended.

I think learning what the symbols mean is part way to overcoming these glitches, because although it can also be very good to give our own meanings, by learning them we have a strong base to work from.

And what if the sitter insists the symbol in the card means something other than our own personal interpretation? do we go with that? surely their input is equally important as our own personal slant on the cards? symbols are significantly more objective than two people looking at the cards subjective ideas, a middle ground. For me, it offers more assurance i'm not just seeing what i hope or fear to see in these pictures.


I meant as a language not a interpretation, symbolic languages are more precise and offer a lot better information then written languages, word for symbol. A picture speaks a thousands words. See we miscommunicated because of my lack of ability to write concisely.
 

Tarotphelia

If there are traditional meanings for symbols in the tarot , if we have a personal meaning for that symbol , if the sitter has a their own meaning for it , or if we channel some new meaning from our intuition , all of these are relevant . They do not exclude one another . It's not either/or . It can be both/and .

Each of those circumstances is a story to be told . They may mesh together and reflect one another , or they may tell a new story . All of those stories can be true, all at the same time , applied differently to the circumstance . If we focus on one and exclude all others it serves no greater good but to leave ourselves and the sitter in the dark about everything else but the one story we choose to see for whatever reason .

When I look at a card I will see it traditionally, energetically , elementally , symbolically , pictorially , and probably other ways I might not be able to define . It could relate to your vacation , your chakras , your dream life , your spirit guide , a traditional symbolic archetype - any number of combinations . Why would I want to limit myself by throwing any of them out of the equation?

Conversely , if a person wants to read using only book meanings and that is as far as they are going to go the only test is - are they correct with their readings ? If not , something is wrong . Go back , start over , try again . If it is working for them and the information they give the sitter is correct I don't think we should compare them to a talking bird , since many of us do not give correct or even comprehensible readings even though we have added a myriad of other avenues to our tarot experience for getting at the alleged truth .

To simplify , it is not so much the car you drive but whether you get to where you want to go .
 

The crowned one

Dark Inquisitor said:
If there are traditional meanings for symbols in the tarot , if we have a personal meaning for that symbol , if the sitter has a their own meaning for it , or if we channel some new meaning from our intuition , all of these are relevant . They do not exclude one another . It's not either/or . It can be both/and .

Each of those circumstances is a story to be told . They may mesh together and reflect one another , or they may tell a new story . All of those stories can be true, all at the same time , applied differently to the circumstance . If we focus on one and exclude all others it serves no greater good but to leave ourselves and the sitter in the dark about everything else but the one story we choose to see for whatever reason .

When I look at a card I will see it traditionally, energetically , elementally , symbolically , pictorially , and probably other ways I might not be able to define . It could relate to your vacation , your chakras , your dream life , your spirit guide , a traditional symbolic archetype - any number of combinations . Why would I want to limit myself by throwing any of them out of the equation?

I agree with most of this.
 

rebecca-smiles

The crowned one said:
I meant as a language not a interpretation, symbolic languages are more precise and offer a lot better information then written languages, word for symbol. A picture speaks a thousands words. See we miscommunicated because of my lack of ability to write concisely.

Sorry, i think i didn't put it well, i agree with you. as we can see from our conversation; its the interpretation where we get lost! What i meant was that it helps to learn what that symbol means- some are easy to deduce, from a particular cultural standpoint at least, but if we know what a symbol is intended for-from the deck creators, tradition, culture etc, it can broaden what the symbol means, not narrow it to subjective standpoint or feeling.

when i thought of doves when i was a kid, i thought of some dumb bird, but i soon learnt it was a christian symbol of peace; now i have two interpretations, three in fact because i will then respond to the given meaning in my own way.

true, its good to have a personal response/story for a symbol, but if that is all we go by, and not symbolism also, do we get stuck on that response?
 

SunChariot

The crowned one said:
Can we read without knowing the meaning and symbolism of the cards? I see many beginners reading using the LWB to make predictions and I feel that is impossible or next to it. I suppose that over time the LWB’s have become reasonably accurate in the simplest of interpretations, and you could put together a real general reading, but you are not doing anything but interpreting someone’s opinion of the cards. The cards have no magic in them. The reading comes from in you. If it is possible to read accurately without understanding the symbolism of the cards to some little degree then I either have underrated the LWB or over-rated the “cosmic energies”. If you can read without knowing the meaning of the cards, then you do not need the cards abilities to focus energy to divine, because the cards themselves do not divine. You do.

This is my take in way fewer words then I should use. How do you feel about the cards? I really feel everyone can do it, but can everyone do it? No.

I am not against this as it is a stepping stone into real divination, but I do not consider that method divining.


There are a number of interesting points in this post. I don't think there is one concrete answer to these questions as reading is such an individual thing. All I can do then is tell you how it feels and seems to me.

You asked if one can read without knowing the meaning and sybolism of the cards. I think some background knowledge is useful as is reading a lot of books on technique when you start out. How can you develop your personal technique without having a good idea of what options are available to you? Do you strictly need to know the traditional meanings to read, I don't know. I don't use them all that much and my readings are fine...so I am not sure on that one.

As to whether you need to know the symbolism of the cards to read, here is a point that I do have a definite opinion on. I don't think, and this is my way of reading, that the symbolism is "knowable". I think it is very fluid and changes each time. I.e they same symbol for me does not have the same meaning twice. That is part of what makes Tarot magic for me.

The way I read, the same card never has the same meaning twice. THe meaning of the symbolism has to be felt and sensed anew in each reading. One day a blue sky can make me thing of being sad (blue) another of a warm summer day (and deep happiness). A man holding a ball, one day the ball is the universe (saying he is holding the world in his hands, another day that he should be more playful (like a chld playing ball). To me I can learn how to sense symbolism, but I don't feel it can be learnt or memorized, it is new each time.

I do believe that there are a variety of ways to read and if you know in your heart and head what you intend to do in the reading, the answers will come in whatever form you expect them to and intend to read in. But a LWB? Some have just 3-4 keywords in them per card period. That would have to give a very short reading. And yes, it is possible that none of them could apply to the situation. It might be possible to use them as a jumping off point to get your ideas started and flowing, but if that was all you did (just look up meanings in a LWB), I think the readings would suffer.

Yes exactly, the cards are not magic, they are a tool to bring out your personaly magic that comes out when you read. Although there is a certain amount of magic in the right cards always landing in the right position and place. And the right cards do tend to come up where they should. But that is not the cards either. I personally attribute that to my higher powers.

My answer to your question about if it is possible to read without understanding the cards symbolism is again that I think all you need is to know how to find what something means inside yourself. To look at a symbol and just feel what it means. You don't ahve to know beforehand, to me it is something that is done each time anew as part of the reading. I think you have to understand the process of how to see symbolism and sense what it means, but you don't have to understand any more than that, imho.

Well, here is where I will lose a few people maybe. LOL I don't know that the cards have set meanings for me. I read almost uniquely by analysing the imagery and symbolism and feeling the answer. It works very well for me and I wouldn't change a thing. But yes, I do need the cards to read. I am not psychic in any way. I need the images to give me the message of the card and its meaning. Needless to say, because of the way I read, non-scenic pips do not work for me.

Bar