Flornoy's Elements

Jean-Claude Flornoy, in his self published booklet about his interpretation of the tarot of Jean Dodal "THE JOURNEY OF THE SOUL" states on page 47,

"When a being incarnates, he is looked after by one of the four "royalties", catagories, castes or colleges into which the ancients divided society: Batons, of which the Papess is the archetypal model of those who produce and construct: peasants or craftsmen. Coins, with the Empress personifying those who trade and keep money circulating: the merchants and financiers. Swords, for which the Emperor represents those who defend and govern: princes and warriors. And finally the Cups, with the Pope as model for those who teach and cure: priests and healers."

Earlier in the booklet Flornoy equates the element of Earth with the Papess (page 5), The element of Water with the Empress (page 7), the element of Fire with the Emperor (page 9), and the element of Air with The Pope (page 11).

So, we get a tidy set of correspondences:

FIRE..........SWORDS..........EMPEROR
AIR.............CUPS.............POPE
WATER........COINS............EMPRESS
EARTH........BATONS..........PAPESS

From a historic perspective, these correspondences seem like the most sensible of the various ones I've seen. Thank you Mr. Flornoy.



Source:
Flornoy, Jean-Claude. The Journey of the Soul. Sainte-Suzanne: LeTarot.com Editions, 1999.

This booklet is avalible in either French or English, along with his excellent handmade reproductions of the the Tarot of Jean Dodal, the Tarot of Jean Noblet, and handsome leather tarot cases through the authors website, www.letarot.com.

Ayumi

Fire Water Air Earth Æther

Hello Ayumi ! Welcome to Aeclectic Tarot !

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I've been thinking about the "elements" lately
and what I am trying to find is how they are
all connected, like a nice fire in a warm room,
when we have a mutually balanced symbiosis.

Here are some quotes with links to a website
that I enjoyed reading~ they're a fun bunch!

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"What is Fire?" ©2002 by Forcefield

What is fire? "Fire is a rapid, self-sustaining oxidation process accompanied by the evolution of light and heat of varying intensities." --Richard L. Tuve, Principles of Fire Protection Chemistry, Boston: National Fire Protection Association, 1976. It's interesting to note, however, that an old pickup truck rusting in the backyard is undergoing exactly the same chemical reaction as a raging forest fire--only much more slowly.

Click to expand...

http://www.matchrockets.com/fire/firemain.html

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"What is Water?" ©2002 by Forcefield

What is Water? Simply, it's 2 atoms of Hydrogen and 1 atom of Oxygen bonded together. Water is the most abundant compound on earth. About 70% of the human body is made of water. We tend to take it for granted..but chemically, water has some very unique properties. It may be the most unusual of all liquids! It's very odd that water is a liquid in the first place--all other compounds of similar molecular weight and structure are gases at room temperature. Water boils and freezes at extremely high temperatures for its size because of the extensive network of hydrogen bonds. Water has the highest specific heat, heat of vaporization, and heat of fusion of any other liquid at room temperature--it takes lots of energy to boil it, and a long time for it to cool down. Water also has a ferocious solvent action...a huge variety of compounds dissolve in it. Perhaps the strangest property of water is that it is the only known liquid that shows expansion upon cooling, since water is most dense at 39.2°F. This is why ice floats, and is a very important property--in very cold air temperatures, colder water rises to the top of a lake or river and freezes, leaving denser liquid below that allows aquatic life to survive the winter.

Click to expand...

http://www.matchrockets.com/water/watermain.html

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"What is Air?" ©2002 by Forcefield

What is Air? At sea level, dry air is made of 78.03% Nitrogen, 20.99% Oxygen, 0.94% Argon, 0.03% Carbon Dioxide, 0.01% Hydrogen, 0.00123% Neon, 0.0004% Helium, 0.00005% Krypton, 0.000006% Xenon, and a trace of Argon. It exerts a pressure of 29.921 inches of mercury. When air contains water vapor, the amount of water in it is expressed as "relative humidity," which is the ratio of the partial pressure of water vapor in air to the vapor pressure of water at the temperature of the air, written as a percentage.

Click to expand...

http://www.matchrockets.com/air/airmain.html

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"What is Earth?" ©2002 by Forcefield

What is Earth? Well, it's made up of: 47% Oxygen, 28% Silicon, 8% Aluminium, 5% Iron, 4% Calcium, 3% Sodium, 3% Potassium, 2% Magnesium, and 1% other stuff. So most of the Earth's rocky crust are Silicates, which are combinations of Silicon and Oxygen. Another important aspect of Earth, though is life! We've chosen these experiments for the Earth page since they involve rocks, dirt, plants and animals. One thing we've noticed--the hidden forms and structures of atoms, molecules, plants, mathematics, and more...are often more beautiful that we can imagine with a cursory look. It pays to look deeper...witness the "Buckyball" shown below. Besides being beautiful in form, this new molecule shows potential in many fields, including medicine, electronics, physics, chemistry, and ??? Plus it's much more interesting than television!

Click to expand...

http://www.matchrockets.com/earth/earthmain.html

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"What is Æther?" ©2002 by Forcefield

What is the Ether (Æther)? Until the late 1800s, scientists assumed that since they had discovered that light behaved like a wave, there had to be a medium through which it propagated. This medium was the Ether. Michelson and Morley tried to detect the Ether using interferometry with their famous experiment. The result--a "null." Its existence was not proven or disproven. Add in Maxwell's equations from the 1860s, and things at the time were very confused. If there was no Ether, light travelled 186,300 miles per second relative to what? Einstein was able to address this problem...

Click to expand...

http://www.matchrockets.com/ether/ethermain.html

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I wonder~ what is the "Hub" of the "Wheel"
upon which each of these revolves as One?

Has Flornoy revealed their true relationship?

Thanks for the links Fulgour!

What a great scientific approach to the ancient idea of the elements (And a cool website all around.)

This is an interesting contrast to Mr. Flornoy's approach to studying the cards, which explores possible connections between Tarot and Medieval fraternities, particularly the ancient tradition of "compagnons passants" (the fraternity known as "Maitre Jacques' Children" - itinerant builders who had also "passed" into a state of heightened awareness), and from today's "Compagnons passants des devoirs". This is presented in detail on his website:

www.letarot.com.

Has Flornoy revealed the elements true relationship? Perhaps for himself, and his view of the Tarot, yes. For the rest of us? Who knows.

An interesting side note on Flornoy's view of the suits and elements is they could be brought into agreement with the earliest known written connection between card suits and elements. This would be from "La Signification de l’ancien jeu des chartes pythagorique" (1582) by Jean Gosselin. This is from Michael Hurst's websight:



"1582 ?

A book by Gosselin (La Signification de l’ancien jeu des chartes pythagorique) associates the four suits with the four elements, in a 52-card French-suited deck. (One Tarot author noted that the term “Pythagorean” in the title is an example of the inflated manner in which the label was used at the time. It was slapped on to anything concerned with numbers to add a false patina of age and wisdom, and cards had numbers.) Franco Pratesi summarized the attributions as follows:

“Firstly, it will be seen, that in a common pack of cards there are four types of characters: which are Tiles, Clovers, Hearts and Pikes. These show us the four Elements, of which all natural things are composed…

— The Tiles, [Diamonds] which are depicted on the cards, signify the earth: for just as the earth sustains all heavy things, so the tiles are used to bear the heavy things placed on top of them.

— The Clovers, [Clubs] which are depicted on the cards, represent water: for the reason that the clover is an herb that flourishes in moist places, and is nourished by means of the water that makes it grow.

— The Hearts, which are depicted on the cards, signifies to us air: since our hearts could not live without air.

— The Pikes, [Spades] which are depicted on the cards, represents to us fire: for just as fire is the most penetrating of the Elements, so the Pikes are very penetrating weapons of war; and with each of the above-said characters are marked thirteen cards in a deck, which gives the sum of fifty-two cards.”

(From a TarotL post by Ross Caldwell; quoted from Franco Pratesi in Jean-Marie Lhôte, Dictionnaire des jeux de Société, note 18 page 652.)"


http://www.geocities.com/cartedatrionfi/Fragments/1540-1739.html

scroll down to 1582.


I say "could be brought into agreement" since there are two different systems explaining which of the French suits (standard playing cards) corresponds to the Italian suits (Tarot cards).

Cartomancers of the French school would make these associations:

Tiles (Diamonds)........Batons..........Earth
Clover (Clubs).............Coins..........Water
Hearts ......................Cups.............Air
Pikes (Spades)..........Swords...........Fire


source:
Huson, Paul. Mystical Origins of thr Tarot. Rochester, Vermont: Destiny
Books, 2004. p.15, p.155, p.224.

I don't know if Mr. Flornoy based his theory on Gosselin, or came to it by another way. It is food for thought. Flornoy's ideas also seem to fit very well with how people in the late Medieval and early Renaissance times would have viewed the suits and elements.

Ayumi

I found both your posts very interesting, thank you. I cannot find where I read it but it was a medieval source book of some kind; it said Tiles/diamonds/coins where because the tiles in a church signified wealth, where wealth and donations took place in the chancellery, and Clubs/Clover/acorns/batons were the peasantry- the element of Earth/fire because clover was the feed of animals and acorns the feed of pigs when roasted by fire. I personally cannot see clubs as the water sign. ~Rosanne

Hi Rosanne!

Rosanne said:

I found both your posts very interesting, thank you. I cannot find where I read it but it was a medieval source book of some kind; it said Tiles/diamonds/coins where because the tiles in a church signified wealth, where wealth and donations took place in the chancellery, and Clubs/Clover/acorns/batons were the peasantry- the element of Earth/fire because clover was the feed of animals and acorns the feed of pigs when roasted by fire. I personally cannot see clubs as the water sign. ~Rosanne

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WOW! Interesting tidbit. Let me know if you ever find the source!

I agree that clubs are an unlikely canidate for the element of water.

I use to have a problem with Flornoy's and Jean Gosselin's view of CUPS being AIR. Cups seemed the natural choice for water. I have recently had to reconsider.

Part of the problem for me was I didn't realize that modern views about the nature of the elements is somewhat incongruient with fifteenth century views.

In "Astrology, Psychology and the Four Elements", Stephen Arroyo gives a fairly typical modern interpretation of the element of Air:

"The air signs have the ability to detach themselves from the immediate
experience of daily life, thus enabling them to gain objectivity,
perspective, a rational approach in everything they do." p.96

Mr. Air here is intellectual, detached, objective, rational, etc. and would certainly fit the common association with "the sword".

Compare these ideas to a typical description of the Airy Saguine temperment from 1607:

"Complexions cannot virtue breed or vice,
Yet may they unto both give inclination,
The Sanguine game-some is, and nothing nice,
Love, Wine Women, and all recreation,
Likes pleasant tales, and news, plays, cards & dice,
Fit for all company, and every fashion:
Though bold, not apt to take offense, not ireful,
But bountiful, and kind, and looking cheerful:
Inclining to be fat, and prone to laughter,
Loves mirth, & Music, cares not what comes after."

from "The School of Salernum"

Quite a bit of a difference. Here, Mr. Air is depicted as a happy-go-lucky merry making lover of wine and women. This definately would fit with the symbol of "the cup". Air was also associated with blood. This brings up further associations with the chalice, the blood of Christ, the Church, and back to the Pope. And I think we all know it wasn't WATER the Viscontis were sipping out of their gold goblets. He he.

Sources:

Arroyo, Stephen. Astrology, Psychology and the Four Elements. Sebastopol, CA: CRCS Publications, 1975.

The School of Salernum (Regimen Sanitatis Salerni), English version, Sir John Harrington, London, 1607. Edizioni Saturnia, Rome, 1966.

Hi Ayumi,

I am so glad to meet a Japanese TdM friend here!

Hey Kenji,

It is great meeting you too! Where in Japan are you? What do you think of Flornoy's rather unorthodox elemental corespondences?

Ayumi

Ayumi said:

So, we get a tidy set of correspondences:

FIRE..........SWORDS..........EMPEROR
AIR.............CUPS.............POPE
WATER........COINS............EMPRESS
EARTH........BATONS..........PAPESS

From a historic perspective, these correspondences seem like the most sensible of the various ones I've seen. Thank you Mr. Flornoy.

Click to expand...

How in the world one connects Cups with air rather than water I cannot even imagine: surely you have not thought this out. And do not Coins stand for materiality, for the mundane or earthly?

Ayumi said:

Cartomancers of the French school would make these associations:

Tiles (Diamonds)........Batons..........Earth
Clover (Clubs).............Coins..........Water
Hearts ......................Cups.............Air
Pikes (Spades)..........Swords...........Fire


source:
Huson, Paul. Mystical Origins of thr Tarot. Rochester, Vermont: Destiny
Books, 2004. p.15, p.155, p.224.

I don't know if Mr. Flornoy based his theory on Gosselin, or came to it by another way. It is food for thought. Flornoy's ideas also seem to fit very well with how people in the late Medieval and early Renaissance times would have viewed the suits and elements.

Click to expand...

Same comment. How could coins possibly be water? And if Cups are air, they must remain forever empty, n'est ce pas?

I also (as stated elsewhere) find Swords' identification with fire to be spurious, since Batons are the only burnable suit symbol and thus are the fire, Swords merely being forged in the fire thus created. The metal suit symbols are the ones that can pass without diminution through fire (the first element, being the energy of which all matter is composed) to reach the other three.

I really think you would do well to rethink this.

coins

To deal with one aspect of this debate, I offer an extract from Flornoy's text, The Journey of the Soul:

"The Empress represents all who cause money, the subtle blood of our society, to circulate: shopkeepers, financiers, bankers, etc... Water is her element (the French expression for cash is "l'argent liquide"). Being a liquid, money must flow freely, but not without purpose.
The art is to not hold it back, and not waste it. Well employed, money is none other than the raw material of action. One can do nothing without it."

For me, money does seem to flow. It does seem difficult to store. In fact, it mostly seem to run through one's fingers - it comes in, and out it goes again.

Since it is early January, for 2007 I wish you all the magic capacity to pile it up. But every talent bears its own pitfalls - piling it up doesn't seem to generate more life or happiness (I know, its early in the year for truisms - very irritating, they are). And it is undeniable that its total absence is deadly.

For whatever its worth, and I fear I'm veering off-subject, it is said that when the gods wish to punish someone, they arrange for that person to be born extremely beautiful or extremely rich. I guess we can conclude that most of us mortals are rather lucky!

Ayumi said:

It is great meeting you too! Where in Japan are you? What do you think of Flornoy's rather unorthodox elemental corespondences?

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Frank Lind had SWORDS correspond to FIRE.
Westcott and Eudes Picard mentioned "CUPS = AIR" correspndence.
But I think I had never seen the concept "COINS = WATER" until I read Mr Flornoy's book. And I feel this correspndence is pretty reasonable in its own right. (I myself adopt "COINS = EARTH", though.)

I am from Fukuoka -- North Kyushu.
And I have a tarot blog (in Japanese, of course!)
I'd be glad if you had a look

http://blog.goo.ne.jp/valet_de_coupe/