Astrological Considerations in Historic Tarot - split from 'what we do NOT know'

Rosanne

I'd like to suggest a different tack.

What's worth knowing about historical tarot?
I was trying to take the slow circuitous route Lol. You are braver than me, I keep looking behind the screen to see who is waiting to scream "ASTROLOGY????" There is no proof of astrology, it has been researched and there is no evidence. So as Tarot makes me happy, I just look and look, and I can see no research about what I see in the cards (excuse the pun) and I shut up about it.

Probably easiest to start with the negative.
Hence the thread title....glad you could see behind the veil.

I believe, as does Rosanne and some others, that story telling about why X trumps Y was likely part of the early play, and that the overall story is Prudence.
Yes. How did one go about finding the prudent time/action/possibility in the 15th Century?
You had a Court astrologer. Or a privately hired one or even studied it at Pavia.


I think if we knew more (or paid more attention) to how artists work, a lot of "mysteries" would evaporate.
Amen, but I really do not know how to do this, except what my eyes see.



I'm interested in the astronomical aspects because the trumps are filled with astronomy. And because the genius astronomers of the age were in the Mamluk empire (including Cairo, which was and still is in Egypt), I think it's worth knowing more about the Mamluk roots. Here's something on the astronomy of the Mamluks http://www.jstor.org/discover/10.23...2&uid=70&uid=4&uid=3739256&sid=21102815670231
Thanks for that. I am standing behind you cowering, but will get braver.
~Rosanne
 

Rosanne

One Yahya J Michol of the department of Theology at Oxford wrote about Mamluk literature(specifically Mamluk Bahri; Mamluks of the Nile region.) and said the following...
First of all, in the majority of panegyric books identified by Holt as royal literary offerings, prophesies from revered shaykhs, prophetic dreams, astrological predictions, and the symbolic meanings of letters and numbers are all appealed to as topical devices of legitimisation and political propaganda.
This reminds me of the Italians at the time of the hand-painted cards.
~Rosanne
 

Rosanne

As an Astrological consideration-The personification of the planets i.e Emperor as Mars or The Chariot as Mars...
This is an illustration of what I mean much earlier than Tarot of course.
Under the leadership of a man named Gohar al-Siqili (a Greek who had been born in Sicily–Siqil is the Arabic name for Sicily–and converted to Islam), the Fatimid armies set out to conquer Egypt. There are two stories about what happened next, and both have to do with astrology.
One story says that the Fatimids set out on the campaign because the court astrologers saw that Jupiter was aligned with Saturn, the way it had been when the Fatimids had risen to power in Tunisia. The other is that, the night before the Fatimids were to attack, the planet Mars, in Arabic "al-Qahir," was sighted in the skies to the west. In both stories, the planetary signs were considered to be good omens. And whichever story you believe, the omen turned out to be true.
The Fatimids had little problem conquering Egypt and taking over. Gohar planned to build yet another city, to the north (of course) of Fustat, on high ground. This city was planned to be an exclusive city for the rulers and their immediate family. This would provide a sense of mystery and divine guidance about the rulers, who would be inaccessible to the people. The new city was called Medinat al-Qahira, or "the city victorious." This is the Arabic name for the city of Cairo to this day.
History of Cairo via Wikipedia

The celestial trio of Sun/Moon/Stars seems to indicate common practices of the 15th Century. The Mamluks used the Ptolemaic system as was discussed in Humanist groups in Italy. Both Islam and Christian groups used Astronomy to find timing. The Christian to decide on the date for Easter, and Islam for the time of prayer- but Astrology to find signs and portents for War and success, Marriage and the birth of leaders for example. The Mamluks used the Mansions of Moon for types and descriptions.
So are the Celestial trio an indication of Sun=Astronomy, Moon=Astrology and the Star the heavens which both use?
~Rosanne
 

Rosanne

We do not have any examples of woodblock cards at the beginning, I have taken the liberty to suggest that the Cary-Yale sheet maybe something like the game cards of Tarot in the time of 1439 Florence.
I would like you to look at the the Celestial cards of Star/Moon and Sun on the Cary- Yale Sheet. Only half of the Sun card is visible and seems from a design point of view it had one child carrying a banner- not two as in the TdM later versions.
http://tarothistory.com/cary.html

The Council of Basel became the Council of Florence and started it's deliberations in January 1439.(Aquarius which is ruled by Saturn). The Council was about bringing reconciliation between Eastern and Western Catholics. These two churches were often called the 'rivers' of Catholicism. Catholicism means Universal, but the tenets of the two rivers were different. The Council was about to make the two rivers one by dialogue.

The Council on the 6th July found agreement/accord and declared the "Let the Heavens Rejoice" (Cancer ruled by the Moon)

The Sun looks like it is in Gemini, but given in the Cary Yale sheet there is only one child,
it may be saying "Let the Heavens Rejoice."

This date was recorded as a ceiling horoscope in Florence and can be seen at #9 on this site.
http://conciliodifirenze.wikispaces.com/
There is also another picture of what looks like Judgement on the same site.
~Rosanne
 

Cheiromancer

It's fascinating that they would record horoscopes as ceiling-art!

I don't follow the bit about the Sun in Gemini and "Let the Heavens Rejoice". The TdM I have has two children, so I can see Gemini there, but why only one child if it is Gemini in the Cary sheet? And how does Gemini come up in the Council of Basel/Florence? Is there a rejoicing element if the Sun is in Gemini? (I don't know much about astrology - sorry.)
 

Rosanne

I don't follow the bit about the Sun in Gemini and "Let the Heavens Rejoice". The TdM I have has two children, so I can see Gemini there, but why only one child if it is Gemini in the Cary sheet? And how does Gemini come up in the Council of Basel/Florence? Is there a rejoicing element if the Sun is in Gemini? (I don't know much about astrology - sorry.)

Well, I could not use the Cary Yale sheet as an example, then suggest it had Gemini- when there is only one figure carrying a banner. So what is the answer?
The Council had about four main debates, things that divided the Eastern Catholics from the Western Catholics-(Unleavened bread for communion/Purgatory are two of them) the biggest debate is over some words and is called the 'Filioque' clause.
(And in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, and giver of life, who from the Father and the Son proceeds).
The East say "who from the Father" only.
Finally on July 5th, the agreement was reached, and signed off and Published and read out July 6th. The West had won, or so it seemed at the time. The Greeks back home never accepted it.
and the Son.... was included in the Nicene Creed.
Depicting this perhaps, we have a card with the Sun and a child carrying banner with cross maybe, in the Cary- Yale sheet. Victory for the West? a card of the Filioque clause?
It is very difficult to think these learned men debated over three words for four months.
The Council of Florence had lasting impact on Florence and surrounding states, at the time the issues were the hottest topic around.
That astrological image on the ceiling covers the zodiac for the months of the Council.
Apart from the Virtues, the characters of Tarot are there. It looks Eastern and the Eastern people were far ahead in Astrology than the West.
~Rosanne
 

Cheiromancer

Why did you mention Gemini at all?
 

Bernice

Hi Cheiromancer,

On the 6th & 7th of June the sun is in Gemini. When the midsummer solstice occurs, the sun moves into Cancer.

Bee :)
 

Rosanne

Yay Hi Bee!!!! Thanks.
~Rosanne
 

Cheiromancer

And what is the significance of the 6th and 7th of June?