Etteilla question...

How do you read it?

1. Major arcana numbering is not matching.
2. There are some different Major arcana cards.
3. Each card has 2-3 (almost) contrasting meanings, depending reversed or not.
4. The upright meaning matches tarot meanings.
5. Do card border colors have any meaning (there are 36 red, 18 yellow, 23 blue and 1 green. The colors match the suit colors and the circular image in Le Chaos card.) Can it mean 4 dimensions or something? These colors do look accidental but how can something be accidental in divination deck?
6. Each card is numbered from 1 to 78. The Fool is 78th. First are counted courts and the last are the aces. The last card before Fool is the Ace of Pentacles (77th).
7. What does PRUDENCE mean, just the word. Even after looking at the dictionary I cannot quite get it. And why is it looking at the mirror?

AT the moment I am reading these cards as playing cards or Lenormand based on keywords mostly. The French keywords make more sense than the meanings in the booklet that seem to contradict the French meanings in some cards.
Do you have any ideas on Etteilla deck, especially what is it based on? Numerology, astrology, dignities, anything else? Any insights would be appreciated..

I hazard a guess that there is probably more information and Etteilla texts on this site than is available anywhere else in English:

The beginning of Tarot cards meaning - Etteillas Troisième Cahier
http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?t=180963

Etteilla's Troisième Cahier Supplement: text & translation
http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?t=185573

Etteilla 1750-91 and card Variants - background
http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?t=122602

(There is even more, here and there, but these three contain the greatest body of work/information. It is a lot of work to wade through! Perhaps too much?)

As well as keywords (and synonyms thereof) Etteilla made a lot of use of card combinations. In structure, the sequence moves from the things of God, to the things away from G-d. Thus the first cards are the days of creation (roughly following the last trumps of the TdM in reverse order) between the two god cards (eqivalent to the Pope and Popesse in the TdM), the last cards are pentacles, the material universe, the planets, idols/idolatory and finally the fool/madman (the fool says in his heart, there is no god).

He made some use of numerology in his methods, one of his own that can be somewhat hard to follow. The first 12 cards are assigined to the zodiac, and the pentacles to the planets and moon's nodes - it is possible to use these alone in spreads to made pseudo-horoscopes (as in geomantic astrology) which one can read then according to usually astrology rules.

Etteilla was heavily influenced in his re-ordering of the cards by the essays of Gebelin and Mellet, reading them might be useful background, they can be found in rough translation here:

Mellet's 'Researches on the Tarot':
http://www.tarotpedia.com/wiki/Recherches_sur_les_Tarots

Gebelin's'Game of Tarot':
http://www.tarotpedia.com/wiki/Du_Jeu_Des_Tarots

Note for example how they interpret the cards in reverse sequence, from the World to the Bagatto&Fool, this in part is reflected in Etteilla's restructuring of the sequence.

On Prudence, see for example here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prudence

kwaw said:

I hazard a guess that there is probably more information and Etteilla texts on this site than is available anywhere else in English:

On Prudence, see for example here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prudence

Click to expand...

Thank you so much for so much information! It's interesting that the CHAOS card reminded me of of the BIG BANG at first and then this Eve, snake and apple tree which was the female QUESTIONANTE. It's very interesting what you said about it's numbering. That things move away from God. Also thank you for the links, I have opened all of them and going to read them now. Really not much to add before I read them, thanks again!

I made up a word document with meanings translated from the old french booklet (as well as combinations, etc) that came with my 1890 Grand Etteilla, with additional meanings from other sources/books and two of the main layouts. If you are interested, PM me your email addy and I can send it along.

This blog site will, probably, not answer your questions, but it gave me some anchoring in terms of the Etteilla decks: http://mycuriouscabinet.wordpress.com/page/11/

You'll need to scroll about 2/3 of the way down the page to find that info---that is if you can keep from getting deliciously side tracked along the path.

Oh, and here too: http://www.flickr.com/photos/sumadas-treasure-box/collections/72157631580712992/

I'm no expert, but I think the idea of lots of meanings is that you interpret the cards in the light of their neighbours.

Incidentally, if you have Prudence looking in a mirror, you've got a replica of Etteilla III: medieval-style pictures, yes? This started as the Hanged Man. The 18th Century French couldn't understand it and decided that the Flemish pack (which has him upright by mistake) must be original. You have 3 of Plato's 4 virtues (Temperance, Fortitude, Justice) so they decided the man with a leg tied to a post was a symbol of restraint, hence self-restraint, hence Prudence, making up the set. Etteilla used a woman starting back from treading on a snake. The woman with a mirror is a traditional image for prudence: a pun in "reflection".

DavidMcCann said:

I'm no expert, but I think the idea of lots of meanings is that you interpret the cards in the light of their neighbours.

Incidentally, if you have Prudence looking in a mirror, you've got a replica of Etteilla III: medieval-style pictures, yes? This started as the Hanged Man. The 18th Century French couldn't understand it and decided that the Flemish pack (which has him upright by mistake) must be original. You have 3 of Plato's 4 virtues (Temperance, Fortitude, Justice) so they decided the man with a leg tied to a post was a symbol of restraint, hence self-restraint, hence Prudence, making up the set. Etteilla used a woman starting back from treading on a snake. The woman with a mirror is a traditional image for prudence: a pun in "reflection".

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David, All of your comments about the Etteilla decks are interesting and helpful.

And although Robert Place has not published much about the Etteilla decks per se, he has written much about the evolution of the Virtues in Tarot, and your understanding is aligned with his. His Tarot of the Sevenfold Mystery really explores and elucidates the Virtues as first expounded by Plato. But that's another thread, another day.

Penthasilia said:

I made up a word document with meanings translated from the old french booklet (as well as combinations, etc) that came with my 1890 Grand Etteilla, with additional meanings from other sources/books and two of the main layouts.

Click to expand...

I have a copy of that translation from Penthasilia. It's really helpful.

DavidMcCann said:

Incidentally, if you have Prudence looking in a mirror, you've got a replica of Etteilla III: medieval-style pictures, yes? This started as the Hanged Man....

Click to expand...

Was it in the Flemish decks that the Hanged Man was standing and tethered to a stake in the ground? Or was that another deck, or another type of artistic representation?

From somewhere I remember a man tied to a stake (without struggle) as a shaman or person on a vision quest might "stake" themselves to the "wilderness" as renunciation of the world in hopes that a higher understanding might visit them.

treedog said:

Was it in the Flemish decks that the Hanged Man was standing and tethered to a stake in the ground? Or was that another deck, or another type of artistic representation?

Click to expand...

Yes: here he is
http://www.albideuter.de/html/vandenborre_bacchus_12.html
As you can see, it's just a simple mistake. Court de Gébelin (or was it his friend de Mellet?) decided that this must be right, as it made more sense than the original. It's rather like the way in which Etteilla decided that Jupiter must be original and the Pope a replacement: he knew the tarot must predate popes.