19 October 1701 - 17 March 1703

Apparently this is an important date with tarot, according to Kris Hadar.

I was reading his web site, in a section entitled "A Good Tarot deck," he was discussing the accuracy of symbols/origins of the Marseille and wrote this:

Now is not the time to talk about the origin of the tradition of Marseille, but we have the proof that the model called the Tarot of Marseille is the original one, and that the most ancient known Italian Tarots have copied it. Indeed, some may argue that actually, the most ancient Tarots known in this tradition come from the 1700s, with the Dodal of 1701, made by Dodal, a master card maker in Lyon, then the Payen of 1743, made by Payen, master card maker in Avignon, and the Convers of 1760, made by Convers who was, as well, a master card maker in Marseille. If today we do not have older decks, the fault goes to the authorities at the time, who imposed, for commercial reasons of their own, on 19th October 1701, the destruction of all the molds that were used to manufacture the cards. And the 17th of March 1703, they forced people not to use the cards with the ancient portraits.

Click to expand...

So...what happened back then that made it forbidden to use old images? I've never encountered this information before. That would certainly have an impact on studying the early cards, learning about origins, etc.

Anybody know?

http://www.krishadar.com/A/Index1A.asp

This thread may prove helpful:
http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?t=21791

best,
robert

Fulcanelli said:

Apparently this is an important date with tarot, according to Kris Hadar.

I was reading his web site, in a section entitled "A Good Tarot deck," he was discussing the accuracy of symbols/origins of the Marseille and wrote this:



So...what happened back then that made it forbidden to use old images? I've never encountered this information before. That would certainly have an impact on studying the early cards, learning about origins, etc.

Anybody know?

http://www.krishadar.com/A/Index1A.asp

Click to expand...

Yes - tarot cards were expressly *exempted* from the edict. There was no destruction of the old tarot plates.

The edict is in D'Allemagne "Les cartes à jouer", vol. I, pp. 392-394. While the regular card plates had to be taken to the tax-office and broken, "A l'égard des autres cartes, nommées cartes à points ou blanches, et des tarots, seront tenus lesdits cartiers de les apporter imprimées en carton au bureau du fermier pour y être marquées de la marque, de méme que les autre cartes... Permettons néanmoins aux maîtres cartiers d'imprimer chez eux les cartes appelées tarots, ainsi qu'ils ont fait jusqu'à présent, à la charge de les apporter aux bureaux du fermier pour y être marquées comme ci-dessus et en être les droits payés."

"Regarding the other cards, called pointed or white cards, and tarots, the aforesaid cardmakers will be obliged to take them on card (uncut sheets?) to the tax-office to be stamped there with the stamp, like the other cards... Nevertheless, it is permitted to the master cardmakers to print the cards called tarots at their place as they have done up to the present, being charged to take them to the finance office to be stamped as above (with a new tax stamp), with their duty to be paid".

Cards were a major tax issue at this time, and cards had to be approved for sale in various locations, to assure the proper flow of tax.

Thanks for all this illuminating information!

Also, this shows me that a great deal more is known about the cards' exoteric history than I had ever imagined, based on the books I have read that really don't go into this detail at all, confining the history of the 'Marseille' (and other early decks) to a paragraph or two, perhaps a very small chapter. I see there is a GREAT need to get this information translated and out there for people like me.

Either that, or I better get going with French studies! And get a second job to buy some of these books.

(I wish I had more time to study French...)

Ross G Caldwell (or anybody else who knows): If those old card plates were not destroyed, what happened to them? Are they still alive? Was it permissible to still print cards from them? Am I misunderstanding something here?

Fulcanelli said:

Ross G Caldwell (or anybody else who knows): If those old card plates were not destroyed, what happened to them? Are they still alive? Was it permissible to still print cards from them? Am I misunderstanding something here?

Click to expand...

Sorry I didn't see your update until now...

For the cards subject to the edict, it was not permitted to print cards from those plates anymore.

Wooden plates generally got worn out and discarded. I think pear wood was the wood of choice, but I suppose any fine grained or dense wood, still soft enough to carve, would work. I don't know how long a plate lasts - there must be information somewhere. The Conver plates of 1760 still exist - Camoin published a deck printed from those plates in the 1960s, and the degeneration of many of the lines shows why the use of the plate was discontinued (significant details are lost - I think some members here have this deck).

The reason the old plates for regular cards were destroyed (the edict says they are to be taken to the tax office and "broken on the spot") is because cities could imitate another city's style, and export it to that city undercutting any local tax revenue. I'm not sure who was the main culprit here, but it must have been significant money. The 1701 edict was a way to create a distinct style or "portrait" in the court cards, as well as make sure the cards had the tax stamp which guaranteed that the cards were made where they appeared to be, and the tax was obtained. Since each city now had a centralized tax stamp with a distinct style of face card, it would be hard to fake another city's style - the King's tax-man wouldn't put the stamp on a "forged" portrait.

Tarot cards were exempt presumably because only certain cities made them, and many for export, and the market was not nearly so great. So the only requirement was to bring the printed sheets to the tax man and get the stamp. A problem did arise between Avignon and Marseille and Lyon, because Avignon wasn't French yet (until 1790) - it was part of the "Papal States". So Avignon made whatever cards they liked, and they did affect the market apparently.

There are old plates around, but not many.