Book of Thoth Study Group Part 1 sect. 3

ravenest

[p25 - 48]

Well, in last post on this I asked about Themis and it is actually in this section, however I am still interested if anyone wants to respond.

My next question may start some new seperate threads;

Was Crowley actually a good astrologer?

He states some basics rather surprisingly and others downright wrong!

p.25 -26 The constellations outside the zodiac did not seem to matter to them (the ancients) or matter to mankind.

For someone that had direct access to Egyptiana, museums, etc and indeed incorporated the Egyptian beliefs into his system, this is a strange statement as it is clearly evidenced that the ancient Egyptians held the circum polar stars in great reverence.

On page 27 is a clearly innacurate statement:
"When one says the Sun enters the sign of Aries, one means that if a straight line were drawn from the Earth to the Sun and prolonged to the stars, that line would pass through the begining of that constellation."

-It wouldnt!. -And this from a magician that clearly understood the precession of the Equinox!

He also talks about observing the full moon on the first day of spring.
Is the Moon always full on the first day of spring? Is this something other than our calender spring, is it a measuring of when spring starts Lunarly?
 

Ventrue

ravenest said:
[p25 - 48]

p.25 -26 The constellations outside the zodiac did not seem to matter to them (the ancients) or matter to mankind.

For someone that had direct access to Egyptiana, museums, etc and indeed incorporated the Egyptian beliefs into his system, this is a strange statement as it is clearly evidenced that the ancient Egyptians held the circum polar stars in great reverence.

Well, the way he explains it, (i think) is that the tarot (TARO) is influenced by the wheel of the zodiac (ROTA, gematrically the same?) and the stars and constellations outside of the zodiac wheel did not directly affect mankind as much.

On pp 32, in the section on the Naples Arrangement. It refers to Ain, Ain soph, and Ain Soph Aur, as 61, 61+146, 61+146+207, respectively. Is that the gematric equals of the three?

On a separate note, I haven't read too much Browning, but what does "A got leave an ox to be, No camel, Quoth the Jews, like G" mean?

Ven
 

rainwolf

When he wrote his book wasn't the practice still incomplete, compared to its modern form? I dont think he had precise calculations like we have today, and theres been advances that have made important influences.
 

ravenest

Ventrue said:
Well, the way he explains it, (i think) is that the tarot (TARO) is influenced by the wheel of the zodiac (ROTA, gematrically the same?) and the stars and constellations outside of the zodiac wheel did not directly affect mankind as much.

Yes, thats the way we think now, but AC was talking about the way 'The Ancients' thought, and the ancient Egyptians didnt think like that, the circum polar stars had great significance as, never setting below the horizon, they were considered immortal.

Ventrue said:
On pp 32, in the section on the Naples Arrangement. It refers to Ain, Ain soph, and Ain Soph Aur, as 61, 61+146, 61+146+207, respectively. Is that the gematric equals of the three?

Yep.

Ventrue said:
On a separate note, I haven't read too much Browning, but what does "A got leave an ox to be, No camel, Quoth the Jews, like G" mean?

Ven
No idea ... any takers.
 

ravenest

rainwolf said:
When he wrote his book wasn't the practice still incomplete, compared to its modern form? I dont think he had precise calculations like we have today, and theres been advances that have made important influences.

I'm not sure it was incompleate ... the modern form would be more developed. An imprecise calculation would not explain it as , back then astrology would have been about 25 deg. out of alignment with constellations, nearly a whole sign. In any case AC's familiarity with the precession of the Equinox (one could say his whole revelation was based on the concept, ie, new relevation - new Aeon of Horus etc.) should have informed him.

Then again it may be a case of that old confusion between astrological sign and constellation, yet AC clearly uses the terms in the passage.

Anyway its a minor point, when one is considering tarot. [Just dont go out and try it on the night sky to 'see' your 'natal sky area' or you will get very confused.] But it makes me wonder if AC was a good astrologer .... then again, many astrologers still seem confused on this point.
 

Grigori

ravenest said:
On page 27 is a clearly innacurate statement:
"When one says the Sun enters the sign of Aries, one means that if a straight line were drawn from the Earth to the Sun and prolonged to the stars, that line would pass through the begining of that constellation."

-It wouldnt!. -And this from a magician that clearly understood the precession of the Equinox!

I think we are misreading his statement here. He was not trying to explain how to practise astrology in our modern time, nor even his own time. Aleister as describing the early development of Astrology. This information is only applicable in that it describes how the Ancients, developed a system of astrology based on observation of the sky at that time, and a correlation between that and the world arround them.

I assume he does not mention the precession of the equinox, as its not relevant to the topic at hand (which is really tarot, rather than astrology). And I think we should give AC a bonus prize for sticking to the topic for once and not getting sidetracked :D Certainly he knows about the precession of the equinox and describes it elsewhere where applicable.

I know one AT member who is a big AC fan, but who finds his astrology knowledge limited, so perhaps it really just didn't occur to him to include it.

Ventrue said:
On a separate note, I haven't read too much Browning, but what does "A got leave an ox to be, No camel, Quoth the Jews, like G" mean?

Not sure what he is trying to say here, but

A = Aleph = Ox = Fool
and
G = Gimel = Camel = High Priestess.

Maybe it is just a cute story, or a mnemonic poem to remember the qaballistic attributions. *shrugs*
 

Edge

similia said:
Not sure what he is trying to say here, but

A = Aleph = Ox = Fool
and
G = Gimel = Camel = High Priestess.

Maybe it is just a cute story, or a mnemonic poem to remember the qaballistic attributions. *shrugs*

Hello all, is it to late to join this study group? I hope not as I am reading the Book of Thoth ( up to pg 38 rt now) for the first time myself and would love to jump in on this study group.

In regards to the A=Aleph and G=Gimel questions, here are a few of my thoughts. On pg 35 he is explaining how the 22 Atu (Trumps) are related to the 22 letters of the Hebrew alphabet. These are representative of the 22 paths on the Tree of Life, one letter for each path. From what I read, he (AC) seems to indicate there is no answer as to why the paths are arranged in their particular order, they just are.

Aleph-Ox = A or 1 On the Tree of Life this is path 11 element air = Tarot trump Fool.
Gimel = Camel = G or 3 On Tree of Life this is path 13 Planet Luna = Tarot trump High Priestess.

Whew! Now as I read this back, I'm not sure what the heck I'm talking about LOL. Anyway my point or what I get out of reading pg 35-36 is there is no explanation as to why the 22 trumps are laid out on the tree the way that they are and this indeed is confusing. To put it into modern terms, "it is what it is". The main thing I get from my ramblings on this is..WOW I don't know squat but maybe with further time, study and experience I will. :)

Thanks for listening, I look forward to learning and sharing with this study group.
 

ravenest

Edge said:
Hello all, is it to late to join this study group? I hope not as I am reading the Book of Thoth ( up to pg 38 rt now) for the first time myself and would love to jump in on this study group.

Hi Edge, welcome. I think anyone can jump in at any time.

Edge said:
Anyway my point or what I get out of reading pg 35-36 is there is no explanation as to why the 22 trumps are laid out on the tree the way that they are and this indeed is confusing. To put it into modern terms, "it is what it is". The main thing I get from my ramblings on this is..WOW I don't know squat but maybe with further time, study and experience I will. :)

Thanks for listening, I look forward to learning and sharing with this study group.

There are threads relating to this all over the place, specifically throughout some Thoth forums (as in the Thoth deck the order was changed a bit) but my take on it is this:

The Trumps had a certain numbered order, The hebrew letters have a numbered order. When the tree of life was developed from Cabalistic sources the letters were attributed to the paths on the tree. Now in the Cabalah letters (and now, hence paths) were attributed to elements and planets. Then zodiac houses were attributed to paths. People started seeing similarities between the image on the card and the ideas withing the astro sign ( Strength had a lion on it so it was placed on Leo) and it sort of seemed that there was a simialr 'natural' order between the two, with one or two exceptions.

That's perhaps over-simplified. If you want more detail check the Tzaddi and Star threads.
 

Ventrue

Edge said:
Whew! Now as I read this back, I'm not sure what the heck I'm talking about LOL. Anyway my point or what I get out of reading pg 35-36 is there is no explanation as to why the 22 trumps are laid out on the tree the way that they are and this indeed is confusing. To put it into modern terms, "it is what it is". The main thing I get from my ramblings on this is..WOW I don't know squat but maybe with further time, study and experience I will. :)

anybody who say they haven't felt exactly what your feeling is a lie ;) information overload is how it is to me...you will get to a point where when you look at a card you see so MUCH different imagery you dont know what direction to go with it, and thats where i started using intuition. i know a lot of people do it the other way around, but whatever works for you is what you do. As you get through BoT you will want to check out some other areas of study that A.C. assumes you are adept at, and this will help you understand him more, but in the process you'll pick up more theories and ideas to confuse you more :)

Ven
 

Edge

ravenest said:
Hi Edge, welcome. I think anyone can jump in at any time.
Thank you for the welcome ravenest, guess this means I've made it into what should prove to be a very interesting study group to say the least. I hope you guys don't tire of my ramblings as I try to gain more and more insight on this fascinating subject. I'll do my best to try and make some sense lol.