Switching the magical correspondances?

Grigori

Another discussion on the switching of Heh, and Tzaddi. But I am wondering, for those folks that have a copy of 777 on hand (assuming, the switch is applied in it, I don't actually know if it is...)

How does Crowley handle the magic associations of the switched letters?

For example, in the King Scale, is Heh still Scarlet Red, or does Scarlet Red stay with Aries and the Emperor and belong with Tzaddi now?

What about the plants. Does coconut stay on path 28 with Aquarius, or does it stay with Aquarius on path 15. Or perhaps it goes over to Aries on path 28...

See how confused I am?

(Yes I know, I should just get out my plastic friend and order a copy myself, but in the meantime? :D )
 

ravenest

similia said:
Another discussion on the switching of Heh, and Tzaddi. But I am wondering, for those folks that have a copy of 777 on hand (assuming, the switch is applied in it, I don't actually know if it is...)

How does Crowley handle the magic associations of the switched letters?
Not very well :laugh: judging by the mess in some of the books. I guess you have read my earlier comments on this in the other posts?
similia said:
For example, in the King Scale, is Heh still Scarlet Red, or does Scarlet Red stay with Aries and the Emperor and belong with Tzaddi now?
That depends on what level you are working on (assuming this isnt just 'academic') Scarlet red will always stay with the Emperor (until they change his astro correspondence ;) ) If you are working on that level then the Hebrew letters need not enter into it. If you are working on a cabalistic level then the colour would depend on the energy of the letter you are working with, not necassarily on the claimed attribution of the zodiac to that letter and the zodiacal colour modified by Crowleys philosophic interpretations.

Know what I mean? Unless you are working a specific qabbalistic energy with that letter in a broad band Thelemic correspondence .... good luck
similia said:
What about the plants. Does coconut stay on path 28 with Aquarius, or does it stay with Aquarius on path 15. Or perhaps it goes over to Aries on path 28...

See how confused I am?

Leave everything as it is (the plants, colours etc) and as it relates to the astrology and cards. Just see the Hebrew letter as changing its correspondence to the Tarot card and ignore all the other changes that would seem to appear to realte to that. Tzaddi is not the star it says, not Tzaddi is not the coconut :laugh:

Similia said:
Yes I know, I should just get out my plastic friend and order a copy myself,

If you read the sections (appendixes) in 777 as well as the tables a greater understanding is achieved ... so I would advise buying a copy (but not necassarily taking the inflatible doll along with you)
 

Grigori

ravenest said:
If you read the sections (appendixes) in 777 as well as the tables a greater understanding is achieved ... so I would advise buying a copy (but not necassarily taking the inflatible doll along with you)

hehe well actually was refering to my credit card, but I'll leave the doll at home just the same :thumbsup:

Thanks for your advice Ravenest, exactly what I needed to hear. I am asking primarily for academic reasons, as a few questions came into my mind while creating tools, and this lead me on a tangent (Tangent being a place I frequently like to visit :D )

I googled up a copy of 777 and stopped by the bookstore today, and purchased "The Magician's Complete Tables" by Stephen Skinner. Reading the introduction alone has been fascinating. Between the two I shall be engrossed for some time. :) (Anyone read any of his stuff? They also had his book on projective geometry that I though might be very interesting to study beside the Thoth at some stage)
 

Scion

Skinner's Tables continues to prove wildly useful and practical. I can't overstate my enthusiasm for this book, especially after spending three months doing extensive hardcore research with it next to my computer while I wrote. I really respect the rigor of his method and the passion with which he executed this book... Even when I don't always agree with his decisions. Also worth noting is that I think the Llewellyn edition has corrections to his original Golden Hoard version, but I might be talking out my butt there. :D

Skinner's book is especially useful in context, when you lay them down next to 777 because it's suddenly easy in some places to see not only Crowley's logic, but how research and advances in scholarship have transformed some of Crowley's assumptions/leaps.
 

Grigori

Thanks Scion, I'm really glad to hear of your opinion. I'm finding it a fascinating read and motivator to learn. Although I had become a bit nervous about it, as the only section I'm well informed on (the Chinese/Feng Shui part) is unreferenced (I'm assuming based on his own works) and has a couple of glaring errors in basic information. I have the Golden Hoard version.. Do you (or anyone else) have the Llewellyn? Does table F17 show

Wood: Spleen
Fire: Lungs
Earth: Heart
Metal: Liver
Water: Kidneys
?

The other attributions in that table F15, F16, F18, F19 seem correct, but the F17 column is very shoddy. It should read (and possibly include):

Wood: Liver (Gallbladder)
Fire: Heart (Small Intestine, Pericardium, San Jiao)
Earth: Spleen (Stomach)
Metal: Lungs (Colon)
Water: Kidneys (Bladder)

Apart from this nigling doubt, egged on by my own concern I don't know enough to spot other slip ups, its been engrossing bed time study :thumbsup:
 

Scion

For reasons passing understanding, I actually own both. :bugeyed:

That column is unchanged in the Llewellyn. What's strange is that Skinner is almost better known as a "feng shui" guy. Is it possible he just follows a different subtradition? Or is he flat-out wrong with these attributions?

For his magical material, he makes some very bold shifts, and some that people will take exception to (the Goetia being the most glaring). This is where comparing the tables between this book and 777 is so useful. But then, I know that material, and I don't know feng shui at all.

Once again, the map is proven not to be the territory. :)

Scion
 

Grigori

Scion said:
That column is unchanged in the Llewellyn. What's strange is that Skinner is almost better known as a "feng shui" guy. Is it possible he just follows a different subtradition? Or is he flat-out wrong with these attributions?

Thanks for checking that Scion. The attributions I listed are the only ones I'm aware of, they are core to Chinese medicine, including herbalism, acupuncture etc.. Changing them is kind of like declaring the fire element is wet and cold.

I've asked a couple people who are more knowledgable than me on the development of the Chinese system, and they've not been able to suggest where an alternate system could have come from. Perhaps I need to find some Feng Shui-ers to see if they can shed some light. *Shrugs*
 

Scion

Ah. Ack. That is distressing, especially in something marketed as a factual resource. If I ever needed to check something on Feng Shui that would've tripped me up at the gate. Good to know.

Actually, maybe you ought to email Stephen directly. He has contact information at the Golden Hoard site, and I'm sure he stands by his work. Maybe he knows there's a glitch and is embarassed about it, but perhaps there's some other explanation. Perhaps a Golden-Dawn-esque swapping of the traditional attributiosns for magickal purposes. But that seems fishy to me.

Who knows? It might lead to interesting conversations with Skinner down the line.

Scion
 

Grigori

I emailed Skinner to ask about this. He sent a very helpful reply, the attributions seem to be feng shui ones from the Ch'ing dynasty, though he comments that using the more commonly accepted modern version might have been better. Anyway, interesting to know there are alternatives out there, and he gave a reference where I can look into it some.
 

crystal dawn

I have a book on geomancy (terrestrial astrology) by Stephen Skinner which is very illuminating on the subject.

blessings

crystal dawn