Why Kris Hadar put the date 1181 on his Two of Deniers (Coins)

punchinella

augursWell said:
If we try to prove a Hebrew alphabetic influence in the Major Arcana then there needs to be some reason why that language was used. Remember that this was not just "Hebrew", these letters were orginally Aramaic and before that something else. Were the Troubadours Cathars also? I'm just trying to get a sense of the social milieu at the time that would explain why any of these groups of people in this area would have created a set of cards with four suits and a set of trumps.
AugursWell, the concept of Cathar troubadours seems more than a little strange (but then, I haven't read up on troubadours yet so I don't really know.)

Have either of you looked at Jmd's new hypothesis, in the forum next door? (Located here)

If I understand correctly, it looks like he's proposing a quite plausible reason for the Hebrew alphabet to have made its way into Marseilles decks, albeit at a much later date than this. Which would not rule out an earlier, differently patterned deck of troubadour etc. influence (alas, nothing that we could more than speculate on now).
 

smleite

I’ve been considering the Cups suit, and here is what I managed to put together (Marseilles decks, obviously):

In Tarot, Cups are the only symbol of a receptacle were something is “hidden”, and there is even a depiction of a closed one, if we look to the big cup hold by the suit Queen. Even jugs (like those from Temperance or The Star) are spilling their content, and, if we do not take into account the Mat’s sack, whose content seems obvious (every day’s objects, a traveller’s equipment), the Cups suit is by definition the symbol of something “secret”, even a treasure, hidden in a protective container. That is, if something is hidden, whatever that thing is, it is in itself a mystery – or The Mystery. It is interesting to notice that the word “Arcane” means precisely “secret”, “hidden”, and “mysterious”. The fact that it is hidden is, at the same time, an allusion to its eventual revelation – and, in this sense, a cup can be compared to a book, which holds in his closed pages a secret it reveals when open – if you can read it, of course. That is the case with the book hold by the Papess, which is opened, thought that doesn’t mean you can understand what it says.

In common to all spiritual revelations, we have the fact that it cannot by obtained by force, nor before the right time, nor by someone who is not up to the task; this obviously reminds us of the chevaliers in the Grail’s quest, having to make proof of their pureness of heart and their courage, amongst other virtues. So, when we pull a Cups arcane, we should maybe consider the relation between this image and our need to make proof (usually, I believe, to ourselves) of our righteousness regarding the subject we asked about. After all, it is an image that immediately relates to our hearts, as everyone knows.

And the hidden treasure that will eventually reveal itself refers also to a birth – the cup is the symbolic image of a uterus, an egg, a cradle, even the round shape of the earth, as the primordial mother. This way, the cup (a feminine archetype) protects the greatest mystery of Life; but the fact that this is a liquid container in most depictions (though not in the Ace or the Queen’s card) makes it a vessel for the most symbolic of liquids, that is, wine, water, milk or blood. Wine is “firewater”, or a “water of life”, as in the French Eau-de-Vie, referring to an alcoholic beverage; it is also a Christian symbol for Christ’s blood, as in the Eucharistic mystery. Milk is traditionally (in western traditions, since the subject becomes more complex in Hebrew and Arab legends) a beverage of knowledge and wisdom, like the Virgin’s milk, that nourished saints like Saint Bernard. The relation between, the white milk and the red blood was also very explored in medieval allegories, and was deeply related to the idea of courtly love and the veneration of a lady; amongst the feminine mysteries are the menstrual bleeding, and the production of milk when, due to a pregnancy and birth, there is no production of menstrual blood… this sounded like a sort of alchemy, the red blood (the water of life) being transmuted into a white and nourishing milk. So, the liquid possibly contained in the cup could be related to Wisdom and knowledge, according to the idea of Revelation as access to a mystery, or to Life, according to the birth symbology, and also to the idea of a “water of eternal life” – the Grail’s quest was about this, too.

After all, and whatever the “secret” could be, it is certainly related to the first interdict man ever faced: the access to the fruit of the paradisiacal trees of Knowledge, and of Eternal Life. And it is surely an initiatic quest, since the image of the cup is also an image of death and rebirth – the uterus and the coffin, death to a life and rebirth to another, etc.

A cup, and most of all the closed and round cup that the Queen of Cups presents, is also a cosmic symbol, an image of totality – but with a very important particularity: it is not intact, on the contrary, was severed in two halves… this makes it a symbol of the primordial fracture that divided the Unity in two parts, which again refers to the notion of “paradise lost”, where man faced his separation from God; it also resembles the figure of the Hermaphrodite in Plato’s Symposium; he stated that the original form of humanity was hermaphrodite, till Zeus decided to split them in half, causing the now-separate sexes to spend all their time trying to join back together. In the Genesis narrative Eve was taken from Adam’s rib, and this was sometimes interpreted as meaning that Adam was a hermaphrodite, whose separation into male and female is an evidence of the Fall.

No other image is better to convey this notion of a container hiding the mystery of the primordial, paradisiacal “wholeness” and unity, that the Eucharistic cup: a half sphere revealing the full circumference of the Eucharistic particle. That is probably why the Ace of Cups shows a rich monstrance, a special display to guard and exhibit the Eucharist, an image of totality… it is also interesting to notice the French words coupe (cup) and coupé (severed) are precisely the same. So, the Cup can be seen as the symbol of Man, cut off from his primordial, whole nature, and longing to return to it, as if to the Garden of Eden.

Silvia
 

jmd

I have been intending to re-enter this thread (and the Star, Moon, Sun sequence discussion in the Historical section), but each time have been distracted or otherwise engaged in various other threads...

This thread makes for a wonderful fascinating reading - irrespective as to whether historical evidence may be forthcoming for possible evidence of direct connection to either 12th century or Cathar influence.

Personally, I have mentioned the date 1196 (out of personal considerations only) as a 'source' date for some time (over 15 years), and have at times thrown it as a side comment in various threads or reviews - so I'm in favour of discussing Tarot arising out of this specific epoch. What I do not think, however, is that it manifested as a Marseille deck in either 1181 or 1196 - though we may perhaps discover a document or other which reflects the twenty-two Atouts and the pips and courts together at that time (but I frankly doubt we'll find such).

Over the past couple of years, I have also looked at various research papers and more academically oriented books for connections to possibly either Waldensian or Cathar direct link to Tarot, and am now more convinced that such was not there.

What there is, however, are indirect connections via Eleanor of Aquitaine and the relevant courts she brought to Paris, together with the (later - but not much later) emergence of the construction of Light (mis-named 'Gothic') Cathedrals following the IInd Crusade to the Holy Land (and following, of course, also the annulment of Eleanor's marriage to Louis VII, her eventual marriage to Henry II, and her sons' partial residence in the Parisian court later in the century)... all this, of course, in the 12th Century.

Here, then, in the Parisian area, we have many of the discussed traditions coming together as a 'first' impulse - including the possibility of the bringing back of Mamluk decks from the visited lands surrounding holy Jerusalem.

The troubadours, given the movement necessitated by Eleanor's northern reigns, certainly brought aspects of more southern Cathar society (though perhaps not Cathar belief) within the strong Frankish domains.

Here, to my mind, we have the first phase of Tarot manifestation, specifically as imagery carved by the early proto-Masonic Lodges.

I don't know how many have experienced it, but I recall as a child(and again four years ago) walking through fields (or driving in the case of the more recent experience) and seeing appearing over the horizon the incredible spire and body of Chartres Cathedral - without any other buildings of any kind being visible for a long time! Quite an experience, and one which would have been all the more astounding to pilgrimages made seven centuries ago.

The Langue D'Oc and the more northerly Langue D'Oie (connected to modern French) each have their respective langue d'oiseaux.

With regards to the incorporation of the Hebrew alphabet, I personally have come to the (provisional) conclusion that this is indeed PART of the Marseille sequence, but that, as mentioned earlier and in the thread on the Huguenots, was a later than mediaeval incorporation, which stabilised and established the Tarot as we now have it in the Marseille sequence from the 17th century Languedoc/Provence region...
_____

Now to take some time to read through and add a small voice to that other wonderful thread in the Historical section... and later again return to read added words :)
 

smleite

I myself don’t see much of a “direct” Cathar influence into Tarot decks; I am far more attracted by the direct influence of Courtly Love and Troubadour knowledge, obviously (or mostly…) including the fundamental concept of a “bird’s language”. What seems more important to me is to track down the deepest and truest characteristics of Western spirituality; here, and exactly thought troubadour knowledge, a Cathar link has every possibility to be found in a higher or lesser degree, but in more general aspects, such as the belief in an essential dualism where materiality is a creation of the Devil, and also the role of Love (Eros) in a mystical path of illumination. In the text I have posted about the suit of Cups, I think I have pointed out some notions that could be traced back to Catharism – but I wasn’t thinking about it, back then. I really hope we can study and learn more about this in this thread.

Silvia
 

augursWell

punchinella said:
Have either of you looked at Jmd's new hypothesis, in the forum next door? (Located here)
punchinella, I just get some other posting in the Reading Exchange for this link, not jmd's thread. Can you repost the link please?
 

punchinella

Smleite, I've been holding off responding to your meditations on the suit of Cups because they're so comprehensive, and so beautifully--even elegantly--expressed, I wanted to do them justice. But I find, after reading them over & over again, that they simply leave nothing to say. You've said everything I would have, and so much more as well. I find myself silenced.

Regarding this inner or spiritual Cathar link which you propose--specifically, a:
originally posted by smleite
belief in an essential dualism where materiality is a creation of the Devil
--How specifically do you see such a belief expressed in the tarot? Your next point (love>illumination) is easy. But, mmmn . . . dualism, yes (depending on how one defines the word) . . . Mistrust of materiality, on the other hand--if such is indeed what you mean to imply(?)--well, I'm not so sure.

???