Mantegna-Tarocchi-engraver? Sweynheim, Pannartz, Bocking?

kwaw

wandking said:
In attempting to post this message I ran across what appears to be a very early posting of yours on de Gebelin and was quite impressed. Do you still hold to those opinions?

You mean the one on 'Egyptian Origins' in which I suggest the tarot may have been 'read' or percieved as being in the genre of 'hermetic hieroglyphics' prior to de Gebelin; if so yes indeed I consider it both plausible and probable.

quote:
"Yet among invented games are `pages', in which, while being played,
certain traces of learning are even found, as in Tarots, and in those
which are printed together with the sentences of the sacred
scriptures and philosophers, by the printer Wechel of Paris. Human
desire squanders all the rest, along with those like them, where
money comes in the middle, and that desire is going to be felt."

Inventi tamen ludi sunt foliorum, in quibus dum luditur, vestigia
quoque quaedam eruditionis apparent, ut in Tarotiis, & iis cum quibus
excusae sunt unà sententiae sacrae paginae & philosophorum, apud
VVechellum Lutetiae typographum. Caeterum, & illis & similibus
abutitur humana cupiditas, dum prodit in medium pecunia, & habendi
desiderium.

[Pierre Gregoire, "Syntagma Juris Universi" (Lyons, 1597), Part III,
Bk. XXXIX, §4 (p. 464)]

end quote from:
Source and translation: Ross G. Caldwell in post to TarotL group September 5, 2004

While ‘those printed together with scriptures and philosophers’ does not exactly describe the embemata; it appears to me to be referring to something similar; and Wechel did publish early versions of Alciato's Emblematum liber, which Alciato himself described as being in the genre of Egyptian Heiroglyphics.

In the card meanings I'm allowed some poetic license; however, history - like news, is no place for factual errors or poetic license. Otherwise, I become no better than Graves who took license to create a triple goddess in the mid 20th century.

I don't think the creation is soley down to him; it does have precedent. Crowley for one prior to Graves [in Moonchild and in the notes to 777] alludes to the three faces of the moon goddess and the relationship to the three stages of pre-menstruation, menstruation and post menstruation. Circa 3rd/4th cent. ad too there are references to Diana or Artemis, Demeter and Proserpine being three aspects of the triple goddess of the Moon Hekate; the three different names being used in relation to her rule over the three different realms celestial [diana/artemis], terrestrial [demeter] and Cthonic [proserpine]. Three realms of dominion which may also be alluded to in the TdM Moon card.

Kwaw
 

kapoore

reference for so called Mantegna

Hi Ross,
I'm still missing the reference. I'm about to go back to the art library at UCLA where I have found some good books on early cards. If you have a reference for the copper plating issue I would appreciate it. One aspect of this issue that hasn't been discussed is the connection between the Council of Mantua and the artist Mantegna. (Or at least I haven't run into that discussion) Mantegna was the house artist (so to speak) of that strange and scandalous Council. And there were without question games being played at the Council. I have been reading Pope Pius's diary that includes descriptions of the Council of Mantua. After the Council the Pope brings his Cardinals together and gives them a lecture about the "scandal" that they created by playing games and sleeping around during the Council. He says that he wants to get rid of his Cardinals because they are setting a bad example. But then one of the Cardinals says, why bother? And that seems to settle the whole thing. Possibly the fact that Mantegna was at the council, and the scandalous playing of games (obviously widely reported) made Vicari (or whatever his name is) put the two together. He didn't have the technical expertise to analyze the copper plates. And obviously as you mention in this discussion the copper plates could have been copied from drawings. Still, it's an important part of Tarot history and worth getting solid references on the discussion. Is there a good reference that might be in a very excellent art library--UCLA is really one of the best?? Thanks
 

Huck

kapoore said:
Hi Ross,
I'm still missing the reference. I'm about to go back to the art library at UCLA where I have found some good books on early cards. If you have a reference for the copper plating issue I would appreciate it. One aspect of this issue that hasn't been discussed is the connection between the Council of Mantua and the artist Mantegna. (Or at least I haven't run into that discussion)

Well, I'm not Ross, but ...

Generally it's so, that the "socalled" Mantegna Tarocchi once was called Mantegna Tarocchi, but more or less no art historian of some influence accepted, that the artist of this production was Mantegna (probably by stylish arguments).
The author Heinrich Brockhaus, an art historian, who descended from the family, which made the important German dictionary called "Brockhaus", is an exception. He's responsible for the suggestion (1933 ?), that the trio Piccolomini-Cusanus-Bessarion was active in this question.
The article is in German language and I know to read this language. The argumentation of Brockhaus is thin, it's a suggestion, not more.

The author for instance is in error about the "invented game" from Cusanus in "De Ludo Globi", which should be a game with balls or spheres, something similar to Petanque or Bocchia. Cusanus himself is known for a prohibition against card games (1455), relatively near to the time of the teachings of St. Capristanus in Germany, which had been the most severe attack on German playing card production known between 1370 and 1500. And, in the boring time of the council, Cusanus hadn't been there, he arrived, when the most interesting guest, Francesco Sforza, was already gone (he stayed two weeks only in September 1459).
You'll find a lot of material to the Mantegna Tarocchi at ...

http://trionfi.com/0/m/00/
the text of Brockhaus is at ...
http://trionfi.com/0/m/15/

Trionfi.com favours a solution, in which the Mantegna Tarocchi engravings were produced around 1475, in which the engraving artist was the German printer Sweynheim, who engraved after motifs, which were mainly collected from possibly various sources, mainly bought in a book + engraving store in Venice by the poet Ludovico Lazzarelli, who before 1475 used partly the same motifs already for 2 manuscript productions in Urbino - in different compositions than the 50-elements-Mantegna-Tarocchi.
Involved in the production were probably persons connected to a later pope, Pope Sixtus IV.

Most other suggestions favor an interpretation, which follow a specific argument of the art historian Arthur M. Hind, according which a few card motifs were used in 2 manuscripts in 1467/68 and therefore the complete Mantegna Tarocchi should have existed ca. 1465.
But the same author and art historian Arthur M. Hind stated 1938 the opinion (in the same article), that, if one could know the engraver of a Ptelomy-edition of 1478, that one probably would know also the engraver
of the socalled Mantegna Tarocchi.
What Hind didn't know, was, that the engraver of the Ptelomy was already about 50 years ago identified - with documentary evidence - as Konrad Sweynheim, who didn't engrave in Italy before 1473 (active as a printer then since 1463).

Mantegna was the house artist (so to speak) of that strange and scandalous Council. And there were without question games being played at the Council. I have been reading Pope Pius's diary that includes descriptions of the Council of Mantua. After the Council the Pope brings his Cardinals together and gives them a lecture about the "scandal" that they created by playing games and sleeping around during the Council.

I would like to have a quote, if it's possible.
 

kapoore

Pius II Memoirs of a Renaissance Pope

Hi..

There are two versions of the Memoir--one on line and then the other two volumes that I got from the library. The Council of Mantua was strange because no one believed it would work and it didn't. People simply didn't show up while the Pope sat in the swampy city of Mantua waiting as the host for a party that no one really wanted to attend.
"Some of the cardinals went to the Pope and said, "What is your object? It is no use to keep us here unless you mean to kill us with this pestilential climate. Why do you not Leave? You were here on the apppointed day; you have remained here a sufficient time. The princes stay at home and insult you and us. All realize that you were concerned to defend the Faith. That is enough for your honor. Who can blame you if you cannot conquer the Turks by yourself?..." May 26 to January 1460

Jan-Oct. 1460 The pope decides he needs new cardinals. He is considering the Duke of Milan's son Alessandro (the Duke was one of those who did show up). How serious is the Pope when he makes this speech to his cardinals: "You do not abstain from hunting or games or intercourse with women.... All men desire these luxuries and there is no one who is not naturally inclined to pursue pleasure. But if sobriety, dignity, temperance, learning, sanctity bestowed nothing but this office , fewer would seek it." In the end, he picks one of his own family to strengthen the weak. He says, "We, however, as being but men, shall elect men, since it is not Heaven and angels but earth and men that we are to govern."
(When I find it I'll add the other version of this diary when the Pope wants to elect new cardinals, and consults them.) Are we to interpret this speech as political rhetoric or are we to assume that the Cardinals participated in the debacle of Mantua?
The Memoirs are interesting as a context for the times. Clearly anarchy ruled. The Pope was continuously on the verge of death. Distances were vast, and traveling conditions primitive. Yet people were superstitious enough to steal everything out of the Cardinals apartments while waiting for the next Pope to be declared. And everywhere the Pope traveled people thronged the streets and women "who are naturally more inclined to religion and more devoted to the priesthood" ..."evinced the most extravagant joy."
Still no luck with that other version of the Memoir, but I thought you might be interested in an article on Cusa and the German printers, "A Crayfish in Subiaco: A Hint of Nicholas of Cusa's Involvement in Early Printing? by Johannes Roll. I found the article in an art magazine. Essentially the article describes the earliest printing in Subiaco. Subiaco had strong ties to Germany with most of the monks being German, and it was here that Sweynheym and Pannartz began their Italian careers in printing under the editing of Giovanni Bussi. Bussi claims that it was Nicholas of Cusa who desired to bring the press to Subiaco, and in fact Cusa's coat of arms is on the wall of the monastery. Perhaps the source for the games at Mantua can be traced to Bussi (who seems to have written a lot about Cusa as he was his secretary 1458 until his death and he probably was at Mantua). Maybe Brockhaus is quoting from Bussi on both accounts.
 

Huck

kapoore said:
"Some of the cardinals went to the Pope and said, "What is your object? It is no use to keep us here unless you mean to kill us with this pestilential climate. Why do you not Leave? You were here on the apppointed day; you have remained here a sufficient time. The princes stay at home and insult you and us. All realize that you were concerned to defend the Faith. That is enough for your honor. Who can blame you if you cannot conquer the Turks by yourself?..." May 26 to January 1460

Jan-Oct. 1460 The pope decides he needs new cardinals. He is considering the Duke of Milan's son Alessandro (the Duke was one of those who did show up).

Is there really a son of the duke of Milan called Alessandro? Or is Alessandro = Ascanio?

How serious is the Pope when he makes this speech to his cardinals: "You do not abstain from hunting or games or intercourse with women.... All men desire these luxuries and there is no one who is not naturally inclined to pursue pleasure. But if sobriety, dignity, temperance, learning, sanctity bestowed nothing but this office , fewer would seek it." In the end, he picks one of his own family to strengthen the weak. He says, "We, however, as being but men, shall elect men, since it is not Heaven and angels but earth and men that we are to govern."
(When I find it I'll add the other version of this diary when the Pope wants to elect new cardinals, and consults them.) Are we to interpret this speech as political rhetoric or are we to assume that the Cardinals participated in the debacle of Mantua?

Surely some cardinals participated in Mantova and some of them were rather young. But we generally check, if in specific passages "playing cards" are really noted ... at this for instance "games" seem to be noted, not cards. But if you could do a second view by another version, that's better.
 

kapoore

Hi Huck,
The quote is "games." That could mean dice, chess, cards, or whatever. In the quote in Seznec pp 138 there is considerable detail about how the game is played. My thought was, 'is this just someone conjuring up some neo-platonic explanation for the game, or does this sound like a paraphrase of a diary.' I don't know how lucky I'll be but I'm investigating whether Bussi wrote something about the Council.
 

Huck

kapoore said:
Hi Huck,
The quote is "games." That could mean dice, chess, cards, or whatever. In the quote in Seznec pp 138 there is considerable detail about how the game is played. My thought was, 'is this just someone conjuring up some neo-platonic explanation for the game, or does this sound like a paraphrase of a diary.' I don't know how lucky I'll be but I'm investigating whether Bussi wrote something about the Council.

What does Seznec state? Is it a quotation of "De Ludo Globi?"

Generally I would assume, that Pius II was responsible for getting Sweynheim and Pannartz to Rome. In 1455 (or 1454) Pius had seen very early, what progress could be done with the printing machine.
The remaining printers in Mainz tried to keep the mystery of printing for themselves. But a conflict around the archbishop of Mainz gave opportunity to a siege of the city and Mainz was conquered - 1462. As pope Pius II naturally was involved ... Sweynheim and Pannartz arrived 1463 in Italy.

There are some notes to Bussi and his interaction with Sweynheim and Pannartz at

http://trionfi.com/0/m/