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eugim  eugim is offline
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Hello MaureenH ...
May be you could be interested on an a more extense post I did for the N. Bodet thread.

http://tarotforum.net/editpost.php?d...post&p=1473466

Eugim
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eugim, thank you for pointing me to more info. I would love to see what else you've said, but it looks like I don't have permission to view that post. I'll keep looking here and there.
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Hi Eugim I think you have linked to your post in edit mode, which only you will be able to access...

however from the post number at the end :

http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread...=1#post1473466
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Thanks, kwaw. Will try to remember that trick!

Probably I should make time to read the entire thread, but just from your post, eugim, I think I can see the process you describe until you get to La Bateleur where I get a bit hazy probably because I just don't know enough about it. Maybe in the future universe!

I can see where you get fire/sun as particle of God and moon as reflection and envoy of soul/spirit. The other cards' progressions add another good dimension and way of interacting with the cards, as well, though your post raises a few questions for me, too:

Why would God want to enlighten matter, use such a drawn out process and why wasn't it done initially?

How might this be processed without an Original Sin/Fall template? Do all the Marseilles decks assume this model?

Is all matter being enlightened?

What would that look like when completed?

How does violence in nature and by people fit into ultimate enlightenment if/when such a thing could/will/did exist?

Is the future universe happening for some right now, right here?

Just rambling thoughts to myself.
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eugim  eugim is offline
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First :Many thanks kwaw...

Maureen: Thanks for your replay.You make many questions that worth a more time for ponder.
I ll promise to you at soon as possible.

Eugim
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eugim  eugim is offline
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Hello Maureen and forgive me please my delay to replay to you...
1-May be obvious but must be say that is my point of view so not the Tarot itself as it was conceived. (So what I believe )
2-God as Creator express himself and created the Universe.This Universe for all of Us is his body and we all live in it. (As Bible says "In God we live,we move and have our existence"
3-God as Pure ultimate Spirit (Purest Original Energy) from which we came,created the Universe with gradual levels of this Matter (Universe) which after all is the original Purest Energy of the Spirit becoming more and more dense.
4-The purpose is to enlighten the matter returning experienced to himself.
So matter is the original Spirit/Energy in its lowest point and Spirit is Matter in its highest.
5-In Tarot de Marseilles I see Spirit as Fire,Red colour // Matter as Water,Pale Blue colour (So not Earth -BTW see the VALET DE DENIERS where one can see a DENIERS below the earth- So Spirit as its lowest point,but with a fire point of the Spirit waiting to arise ).
6-Once the work were done (So transmutation )(SEE the sequence IIX-XIII-XIIII-XV-XVI ) precisely at XVI card stage the fire begin to find a way between the hidden fire that is buried in the Earth (so also in ours unconscious Matter Nature) and his own Divine origin (Sun )
I suggest just as an example that you see Jean Dodal (Iean Dodal ) card from his superb deck. /Clearly the flames comes from the tower toward the Sun.
7-And that s all Maureen...
The Matter transmutated returning to his Creator.
8-One more Madam...
Must be have in mind that this process takes place "together" with the Universe,so Us as particle of this Universe,so be agree or not so be conscious or not (Don t mind for God BTW )
9-Again I remarked. / A card named but unnumbered (LE MAT ) / and other numbered but unnamed (XIII).

PS/ I expect been clear Madam...

Eugim
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Hi eugim, thank you. I'm sure you've been clear I'll look this over when I get home ina day or so and can pick up what my thoughts were.

I'm glad to see that your beliefs coexist with Tarot and whatever the original intent might have been as I've been wondering a bit about that from my own heart.
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Hi Eugim, Iím afraid this post will be even more tedious than my usuals because there is so much I donít know. I'll just rattle off my thoughts as a way to process what you've written.

1-May be obvious but must be say that is my point of view so not the Tarot itself as it was conceived. (So what I believe )
---------------------------
I can personally assign everyoneís opinion to their own beliefs, but I donít know so much about the actual origins of the many sides of Tarot so itís always helpful when someone points out that itís just his/her/my belief.


2-God as Creator express himself and created the Universe.This Universe for all of Us is his body and we all live in it. (As Bible says "In God we live,we
move and have our existence"
-------------------------
I want to respect your belief that God created the universe. At the same time I want to share what I think even though it could be very different, so here is what I wonder: What is God? Is God nature? A supreme brain ďout thereĒ. What makes someone think God created the universe? Itís an unknown, or unnamable for me. Though I do feel there is a force or source that has brought us to this point in some way perhaps, I canít say what it might be or if it is aware in any way. I would like to treat the earth as if God created it, but that sort of brings me back to where does violence fit in. It seems to be built into nature. Is that a flaw or, is the idea that violence is wrong a flaw?


3-God as Pure ultimate Spirit (Purest Original Energy) from which we came,created the Universe with gradual levels of this Matter (Universe) which after all is the original Purest Energy of the Spirit becoming more and more dense.
--------------------------
Pure Ultimate Spirit sounds like a good description of God. I could stop there. What is it about matter that makes purity so difficult? Especially if it is created by this Pure Ultimate Spirit?


4-The purpose is to enlighten the matter returning experienced to himself.
So matter is the original Spirit/Energy in its lowest point and Spirit is Matter in its highest.
--------------------------
That answers my question about why Spirit would want to become dense. But why bother? Why not just let matter be matter that contains an element of divinity? How do we know matter isnít already enlightened? Is God aware as this Pure Ultimate Spirit? How so, would one argue?


5-In Tarot de Marseilles I see Spirit as Fire,Red colour // Matter as Water,Pale Blue colour (So not Earth -BTW see the VALET DE DENIERS where one can see a DENIERS below the earth- So Spirit as its lowest point,but with a fire point of the Spirit waiting to arise ).
--------------------------
Thatís very interesting. Why do you see matter as water and not earth? How does this relate with Card XV? What is the significance of the Valet De Deniers and spirit? Does the pentacle beneath the earth convey fire and water? I feel like that bratty kid in Home Alone that asked all the annoying questions. Sorry, I just donít know this stuff. I will have to find the VDD in my deck and see how it appears to me and what I have that's written about it.


6-Once the work were done (So transmutation )(SEE the sequence IIX-XIII-XIIII-XV-XVI ) precisely at XVI card stage the fire begin to find a way between the hidden fire that is buried in the Earth (so also in ours unconscious Matter Nature) and his own Divine origin (Sun )
I suggest just as an example that you see Jean Dodal (Iean Dodal ) card from his superb deck. /Clearly the flames comes from the tower toward the Sun.
---------------------------
I will look at this progression after I finish this message. I do not know this Jean Dodal deck but will add it to my growing list. What is this hidden fire buried in the earth? Molten lava? So you think this firey divinity is hidden in our unconscious as the fire is below the earth? How does this fit with water as matter? Maybe Iíll see something when I look at the cards.


7-And that s all Maureen...
The Matter transmutated returning to his Creator.
---------------------------
Why, if we, and the earth are a speck of the universe, the body of God, would it have to return at all? Isn't it already here?


8-One more Madam...
Must be have in mind that this process takes place "together" with the Universe,so Us as particle of this Universe,so be agree or not so be conscious or not (Don t mind for God BTW )
----------------------------
I can grasp that, having had two children where it sometimes felt like I knew nothing of what was going on and poof, there they were! What does Donít mind for God mean? Whether one believes or not?


9-Again I remarked. / A card named but unnumbered (LE MAT ) / and other numbered but unnamed (XIII).
----------------------------
Are all Marseille decks in agreement with an unnamed XIII? If I had a working printer, Iíd print out your post #39. Thereís a lot to think about in there. I will have to think about that for a while...Thank you, Eugim.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Major Tom
I've only just happened upon this delightful tarot: http://wopc.co.uk/downloads/BodetTarot.jpg

It certainly seems to me to share many charactistics of the Tarot of Marseilles, yet some of the cards have a completely different iconography.

Would you call this a Tarot of Marseilles?
Technically, no, but you can see who it's real daddy was. lol!
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eugim  eugim is offline
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Hello Maureen O Hara ...
-Yes,all the decks has unnamed the XIII card except Jean Noblet and the Tarot de Paris as far I know.

Eugim
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