Sun on the Death Card

RChMI

Dulcimer said:
...........

The fact is The Death card means death. Simple and irrevocable....
..........
Great... but why all the added imagery in the card? Why not have the Marseille imagery of the Grim Reaper to hammer that point home?
 

Keigh

It's all a matter of perspective....

You must keep in mind that the Tarot is cyclical...all cards lead to the next card and to the next level. The World leads to the Fool and so on. So Death IS death - but it leads to resurrection. Whether it's an actual death or the transformation that is like a death - for instance, the snake shedding its skin or the caterpillar to the butterfly - Death does come to us all. But so does the promise of rebirth - in one form or another - otherwise, the Tarot would end with card XIII not with XXI. The Sun is rising if the card is positive, setting if negative. I think it's situational.

Keigh
 

Parzival

Yes, it's all a matter of perspective. Hermetically, "As Above, so Below," so rising and setting are ultimately the same, or at least , one generates the other. But we do die. No denying that. We all fall like autumn leaves or like trees lightning-struck. And yet

If the red slayer think he slays
Or the slain think he is slain,
They know not the subtle ways
I keep and pass and turn again.

Emerson (from "Brahma")
 

ArcanoMáximo

me again!!!!

oh! please, excuse me again,but....
"homuculus" ??????!!!!!!!!
Sorry!!!
 

Dulcimer

Dwaas said:
True for most matters and beings. But not the sun, that will rise again and again, every day! Even no matter who's dead. So I say the sun is rising....I think the sun is rising, because it looks like that to me. :)
Blessings

In the context of the card and in the sequence that follows the sun must be setting. In my view it would be unreasonable for the sun to be rising. It is clear to me as well that there is a sequence of cards following it with the sun re-emerging further on, wherever you may think that is. For the sun to be rising here would make a nonsense of all that. Even Jesus had to wait three days.
True the sun will rise again. Resurection is promised on the banner Death is holding and the "sun of immortality...shines on the horizon" (Waite). But it does not shine on Death.
The fact that the sun is setting doesn't mean it, nor what it represents, is dying. Only that it is becoming hidden. To be rediscovered later. Hopefully.

Some believe that the real death is when you are born into the world not out of it. That the setting sun is our true nature, the eternal Self becoming hidden. And that that is the meaning behind this card. But that's another matter.

All the extra imagery on the card expands on the core idea, RChMI, but it still means the same. The river in the background is, I think, more likely to be the Styx than the Nile. However; "through the valley of the Tuat (the Egyptian underworld) runs a river which is the counterpart of the Nile in Egypt and the Celestial Nile in heaven..." [Wallis-Budge - Gods of the Egyptians Vol.1 p171]. So I could (happily) be wrong. The sun is setting between the Towers on the path we are all taking and it is descending behind the mountains which, in Egyptian mythology, separate this world from the Tuat.
 

Parzival

Some Noteworthy Excerpts From Dulcimer

....The fact that the sun is setting doesn't mean it, nor what it represents, is dying. Only that it is becoming hidden. To be rediscovered later. Hopefully.

Some believe that the real death is when you are born into the world not out of it. That the setting sun is our true nature, the eternal Self becoming hidden....

All the extra imagery on the card expands on the core idea, RChMI, but it still means the same. The river in the background is, I think, more likely to be the Styx than the Nile. However; "through the valley of the Tuat (the Egyptian underworld) runs a river which is the counterpart of the Nile in Egypt and the Celestial Nile in heaven..." [Wallis-Budge - Gods of the Egyptians Vol.1 p171]. So I could (happily) be wrong. The sun is setting between the Towers on the path we are all taking - a recurrent theme as we all know - and it is descending behind the mountains which, in Egyptian mythology, separate this world from the Tuat.

........................................................................................

Yes, Death is synonymous with Death, with disappearance into oblivion from what daylight eyes see.

From the Egyptian Book of the Dead: "I have come like a priest in panther skin, having crossed the Nile by boat, having come through the gap in the mountains, having walked black corridors restless.... I've sailed the Nile and walked through the gap in the mountain. Faithful in word like a scribe I have come.... I ask for water and a strong sailing wind, and a delta island on which to raise my children....I have come to this dark world like a bright star in the southern sky, a shaft of light gleaming in the hawk's eye." (from Awakening Osiris, "The Arrival," translation of Normandi Ellis)
 

RChMI

And in light of Waite's G.·.D.·./Masonic/Rosicurcian leanings.... the Skull and Bones of the rider crushes and conquers the Outer Church to bring forth the Inner Church with the Sun in a Golden Dawning for all.
 

Dulcimer

ArcanoMáximo said:
oh! please, excuse me again,but....
"homuculus" ??????!!!!!!!!
Sorry!!!


Well, OK. I thought RChMI would get back to you on this but maybe I can help. The "homunculus" (I'm sure that's what he meant) is an Alchemical term. Also known as the Divine Child, it is brought into being by the union of opposites - sun and moon, sulphur and mercury, gold and silver, etc. It is the condition the Alchemist is trying to attain.
 

RChMI

Sure enough. Missed that reply (and spelling.) ;)
 

james the younger

about the DEATH card

I have somehow ,without intention made some really interesting discoveries around the rider-waite deck.I continue to study this deck,as it is my chosen deck .that is to say,the one that seems to resonate with me personally.I STILL HAVE A LOT OF RESEARCH LEFT TO DOsorry bout the caps.once I began to learn how to see,I discover more and more.I am at the stage now where I am beggining to research pamela and her background.this will take some time.Iintend to talk to a GAIL DETTMAR. according to her,her grandmother was friends with pamela for many years.Any information I can get from her about that relationship will really be helpful.On her web site she talks a bit about how close they were.Her name was JULIA but was called simply JULIE by Pamela.AND,it IS true.Not just because she says so,but because it WAS so.As a matter of fact,Pamela wrote Julies name on one of the major arcana cards.It's there as plain as day.Also,I asked my cards if it would be ok to ask a few questions about pamela and other things.I ccan tell you this. she and waite did NOT get along.She did have such high hopes for this commission in the beginning,but as time wore on creating this deck they fought.Oh yes,did they fight!And so,Pamela decided she get some of her own ideas across on the cards,and Waite,well,looks like I've run out of space.