78 card Jean Noblet Tarot by Jean-Claude Flornoy

jmd

Hey... we can't even be sure it ain't someone else behind that mask - never mind what's under that book!

...now as to the other faces... geez that's tempting :D
 

prudence

le pendu said:
What do you think... would YOU mess with this Popess?

papesse-web.jpg


She's probably got a gun under the book.
well, definitely she has something in that right hand.:D Gripped like only a Papesse can grip it.

So, *for sure* we are saying it is masks in this deck??

I should add to say that I got my 22 card Noblet from the Tarot Garden. Very very quickly, by the way.
 

le pendu

prudence said:
So, *for sure* we are saying it is masks in this deck??

Not me! I'm willing to consider it as a way of looking at the cards that adds dimension, but I'm not sure I would say it was the artist's intention.. in fact I don't believe it was!

Now the gun... that was surely a basic part of the design! ;)
 

prudence

le pendu said:
Now the gun... that was surely a basic part of the design! ;)
I could see that...I could see why a gun would be added..:D Ah, the Papesse and her gun, how many lines were written thoughout the ages with that image in mind? :bugeyed:
 

Minervasaltar

le pendu said:
The Tarot of Jean Noblet is the oldest surviving TdM. It shares many qualities with the Jean Dodal deck which was published around 60 years later. Together, these decks typify iconography that tarot historian Thierry Depaulis labeled "TdM I", having many differences that seem older than the style commonly found in Nicolas Conver decks. There are also some wonderfully unique details found only in this deck.

I have been comparing my Dodal, Noblet and Conver today (again), and the more I do this, the less I seem to agree with the TdM I (a.o. Noblet, Dodal) versus TdM II (a.o. Conver) devision. Personally, I see much more similarity between the Dodal and the Conver then between the Noblet and Dodal.
To me, the Noblet seems to be the Odd one Out.

There are so many details in which the Noblet seems unique. The most obvious is the facing directions on some cards (emperess, emperor, chariot, death). But also, the drawings on some cards deviate completely from the Dodal/Conver, like the bateleur, strength, death, temperance and the devil.

To me, these differences are at least as good a candidate to make a distinction than the blindfolded angel, de hands on le pendu, the faces on the devil and the face on the moon.

I guess it all depends on which criteria you take to group decks together (and divide them from other groups).
 

le pendu

Minervasaltar said:
I have been comparing my Dodal, Noblet and Conver today (again), and the more I do this, the less I seem to agree with the TdM I (a.o. Noblet, Dodal) versus TdM II (a.o. Conver) devision. Personally, I see much more similarity between the Dodal and the Conver then between the Noblet and Dodal.
To me, the Noblet seems to be the Odd one Out.

There are so many details in which the Noblet seems unique. The most obvious is the facing directions on some cards (emperess, emperor, chariot, death). But also, the drawings on some cards deviate completely from the Dodal/Conver, like the bateleur, strength, death, temperance and the devil.

To me, these differences are at least as good a candidate to make a distinction than the blindfolded angel, de hands on le pendu, the faces on the devil and the face on the moon.

I guess it all depends on which criteria you take to group decks together (and divide them from other groups).

I'd love to discuss this. Maybe we can bring the topic back up again here:
http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?t=61489

For me, the Noblet and the Dodal are much more related iconographically, while the Dodal and the Conver are more related stylistically. You're not alone in questioning this. I'd love to see this explored and discussed.
 

Minervasaltar

le pendu said:
I'd love to discuss this. Maybe we can bring the topic back up again here:
http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?t=61489

Yep, maybe we can do that as well. ;)
My major intention was to point to the uniqueness of the Noblet. For example, the reverse facing directions of the emperor and devil make me wonder if I should stop interpreting facing directions as 'looking at the past' versus 'looking at the future'.
 

rox

Well, it certainly is.....what can one say: stunning, amazing, impressive....to read all your kind remarks and tune into the general enthusiasm. Actually, the decks were delivered Thursday evening, but the news was allowed out once we knew they were on the way. So there was a bit of a functional time lapse. The first orders will go off tomorrow morning (actually here its already 40 minutes into Saturday, so we'll give it another 8 hours) - I hope the post office has some pretty stamps, but they seem to be into comics at the moment.

Know, all, that august Aeclecticians had a major hand in the development of this project. The box itself, with which we are very pleased indeed, was the work of the Forum's own Pendu! And very much care he put into it, that's a fact. Infinite patience and good humour. We are very grateful, and are sure that the Members will be prouder than ever to count him as one of their Own.

And JMD had the goodness to re-read and correct (much more than once) my translation of the booklet, which needed the eagle-eye of an anglophone tarotsavant (which I'm not) to bring terminology choices into line with current conventions and steer me clear of all those embarrasing typos which will creep in whatever you do.

The source, of course, is Mr. Noblet, who should be damned glad to find himself out of the Cabinet des Estampes of the BN - very elegant it is, but hardly what you'd call a place for kicking out the jams (or would that be jambs?). And furthermore, as has been pointed out, his images have been rendered, since Jean-Claude has been looking after them, much more carefully than one can safely imagine they ever were 350 years ago. A look at the originals testifies to the pretty sloppy stencilling work done at the time. One of the knights is riding a horse whose trappings, I fear, were simply forgotten by the person who applied the colors. They're mostly "white". So the re-edition left them that way. For you to decide if this was deliberate, or an ommission.

So Jean-Claude could be called the catalyst, and he really is quite relieved that the fruit is finally ripe. He, too, is grateful for your enthusiasm and kind remarks.

We're looking forward to your observations and criticisms. To head one off at the pass, many will compare the back of the card with its original and notice that the motif is too big. Actually, its about 20% too big. The fact is, we have no idea how it happened. That will be among the things to rectify next time around. For the moment, its just Carry On!

Best to all, Roxanne
 

prudence

Thanks for posting, Rox. And most importantly thank you for your hand in getting this deck made.


And Robert!!! You did not say you helped in making the box! So modest. Well done keeping it all under wraps too, I would have had a hard time with such a secret. :D

hold on, I am wondering if this deck getting made has anything to do with that survey/poll from about a year ago, that was asking if there would be any interest in 78 card editions of certain historical decks?
 

le pendu

prudence said:
Thanks for posting, Rox. And most importantly thank you for your hand in getting this deck made.


And Robert!!! You did not say you helped in making the box! So modest. Well done keeping it all under wraps too, I would have had a hard time with such a secret. :D

hold on, I am wondering if this deck getting made has anything to do with that survey/poll from about a year ago, that was asking if there would be any interest in 78 card editions of certain historical decks?

[blushing] Oh gosh. I didn't actually expect it to get out at all. Jean-Claude and Roxanne were kind enough to ask if I would help them design the box. I was delighted by the chance to help in any way that I possibly could. I only hope it does justice to the deck inside, I haven't seen it yet!

Really though.. I was involved at the very end for a very short time.. this has been in development with months/years of work from the Flornoys. [/blushing]

Regarding the poll, no.. that was completely different. That was to see interest in which decks might be considered for photo-reproduction, and had nothing to do with the Flornoys. The Noblet was one of the decks considered, and I do hope that one day we have the chance to have that as well.

I suspect with the Noblet that the reason it hasn't been photo-reproduced is because it is incomplete. Jean-Claude went to the effort of recreating the 6-10 of Swords, enabling a complete 78 card deck. For "historians", this might not mean anything, but for readers!!! This makes the deck usable not only for reading with the Trumps, but reading with 78 cards as well should you choose to.

Frankly, I'm delighted to see the courts!. To me, the courts in the Noblet are full of intrigue and mystery and clues and questions. What a JOY it is to finally see them in all of their glory! Look at the floor patterns, and the thrones, and the faces, and the clothing! There are so many things to take in, when I first saw the King of Cups.. I said "AH!".

Noblet is a wonderful, magical, delicious deck. It's "earthy" and "sophisticated" at the same time. I've been lucky enough to have images for some time now to review and investigate while Jean-Claude worked on the restoration, which has been going on for several years... but FINALLY, the deck will be available to everyone. I can't wait to see the new threads that will spring forth. There is so much to take in from this very small.. little.. wonderful TdM deck.. the only one left to us out of the "million" (as Dummett pointed out) produced in the 1600s.