RwS : Strategic Stickers

mac22

jmd said:
As to Masonic stuff.... perhaps, like Frieda Harris and numerous theosophical-oriented women, Colman Smith was a Freemason.

You have any evidence she was a co-mason?
 

jmd

For Frieda Harris (and various theosophical-oriented women), yes, there is substantial evidence of their Masonic involvement. For Pamela Colman Smith, no (nor have I ever looked into it) - hence my mention of 'perhaps', more in reply, in any case, to the suggestion that women were excluded from Freemasonry at the time of Pixie's engagements.

As Waite was himself in contact with both men and women in Co-Freemasonry, it is likely that 'Pixie' also had some contact with women Freemasons (Waite wrote about various Comasonic Lodges and the Adyar ritual in his Encyclopedia of Freemasonry - a later work admittedly), in addition to, of course, her clear connection with men Freemasons (Waite himself at the minimum). To be fair, my comment above, in context, was in response to: 'she was for sure not a man and therefore far removed from the Masons of the 19th century'.

In terms of Fulgour's simply quoting my 'in any case...', this simply expresses my point of view, and do not in the least claim to have done much research at all into the life of Pamela Colman Smith. I have read little more than is generally available in the writings of Jensen, Holley's site, and vol. 3 of Kaplan's Encyclopedia - much other bits and pieces very peripheral and ephemeral, really...
 

Lee

Fulgour said:
And all I'm doing is taking the same accepted facts
used to raise Waite and diminish Smith and reversing
the import of the arguments conclusions.
But, see, here's the thing: No one is diminishing Smith. To say that much or most of the symbolism in the RWS deck was contributed by Waite does nothing to diminish Smith. I believe in the entire history of the forum, you will find no one who has said a negative word about Smith. Some people may not like her art, but nobody has said anything negative about her personally.

You, on the other hand, have issued a steady, unending stream of invective, innuendo, and wild claims against Waite. Did it ever occur to you that there may be people (not me) who feel as strongly disposed towards Waite as you do towards Smith? How do you think they would feel about your character assasination?
And if we read Waite's "Key to th Tarot" we can find
where he (in his round about way) steals all the credit
for her work, saying, "I alone am responsible."
But, you see, this is not evidence that he stole the credit. The fact that he says he is alone is responsible is evidence that he was indeed solely responsible. Unless he is lying, of which there is no evidence. You can say "Waite stole the credit" a million times, it doesn't change the fact that without evidence that he's lying, the most reasonable position is to assume he's telling the truth.
Not as a co-worker, but as a grinning ogre. [...] The interesting thing here is that arguments against mine take on a rather high pitched tone, very self-righteous.
Hmm... "grinning ogre" ... "steals all the credit" ... "drank himself to death" ... whose tone did you say was high-pitched? :bugeyed:
"This was about 1929 and there was current gossip
that he had already taken to the bottle."
Thank you for providing some evidence of something. Unfortunately this evidence is not convincing. First of all, the quoted author himself classifies it as gossip. Secondly, this does not say that Waite drank himself to death, nor that no one cared. Thirdly, it does not explain why any of this is relevant to whether Waite stole credit for the deck or told the truth.

-- Lee
 

Fulgour

What's good for the Golden Goose...

Lee said:
All just basic debate tactics, point-counterpoint, turnabout,
playing the devil's advocate, pot-calling-kettle-balck, etc. ;)

It's so much more fun than answering every question by
quoting from a book... "Golden Dawn blah blah blah blah"
 

Lee

Fulgour said:
It's so much more fun than answering every question by
quoting from a book... "Golden Dawn blah blah blah blah"
I knew it! You were just having fun! :D

-- Lee
 

Fulgour

True Colours

jmd said:
In any case, to refer to the deck as the Pamela Colman Smith deck, given that she only ever made one, clearly identifies which deck Fulgour is referring to. I personally, of course, consider the Waite as important in the overall design as Colman Smith, acknowledging the conceptual influx from Waite, and the artistic alteration and creation as Colman Smith's.

As to Masonic stuff.... perhaps, like Frieda Harris and numerous theosophical-oriented women, Colman Smith was a Freemason.
In other words, you approve of Waite because he was a mason,
and dismiss Colman Smith because she was not ~ and a woman.
 

wizzle

Just a tidbit..

But I understand from reading Dummet's book that the RWS when peddled in Russia was only attributed to PCS. No mention of Waite at all.