Etteilla Thoth-Dames border colours???

Freddie

Hi all,

I have been reading and studying the Etteilla Thoth-Dames 3 deck for awhile now, but I cannot find any information on the colour border around each image. I thought it might be the four colour elements, but only one (key 5) is green. The border colours match the rings on Key 1 Chaos as well.

http://www.aeclectic.net/tarot/cards/book-of-thoth-etteilla/


Thank you,


Freddie
 

Freddie

I just scored a brand new Dusserre from France at a gobsmacking low price. It was like it was sitting on eBayuk waiting for me. This edition looks brighter than the Lo Scarabeo version and the borders are all coloured very clearly. I notice that the borders seem to match the rings around Chaos etc.. in the major arcana. I am just curious why they are coloured a certain way...I keep thinking element colour, but who knows?????

Is Desserre made by the same company as Grimaud? I can use them with my Grimaud Marseille as I have been working on how to best use this deck for readings, based on the traditional way it is used in Europe. I will post it on here with pictures when I am done with my findings.

If it helps, I have found this deck is pretty much more of an Oracle deck based on the influences Etteilla used for it. I will elaborate more soon.

I don't know why, but Grimaud decks are the only decks I collect.


Freddie
 

gregory

Dusserre is no more. (Which is a shame as they did the WONDERFUL Dodal.) They were taken over by France Cartes in 2003. But no, not at any time the same people as Grimaud.
 

gregory

Oh. THAT I missed ! Thanks :)

We have the same with Konigsfurt > Urania > A G Muller...
 

Freddie

Here are the proper true titles of the cards, in the 3 version the cards should not be titled....

1- chaos 2- masonry Hiram 4- pool 5- gospel 6- sky 7- snake
8- eve 9- Solomon 11- David 12. Moses 13- the high priest 14. Force Majeure
15. Aaron 16- Judgment 18- Judas 19- Capitol Nebuchadnezzar 20- 21- Rehoboam
Monarch 22- 23- sovereign 25- messenger 26- ten sticks 27- nine sticks 28- eight sticks
September 29- sticks Six-spoke 30- 32- four sticks Three sticks 33- 34- two sticks 35- ace of clubs
36- Pope 37- papesse 39- chamberlain 40- ten cuts 41- nine cuts 42- eight cuts
43- seven bowls Six cups 44- Cut four 46- Three cups 47- 48- two cuts 49. Ace of Cups
50- emperor 51- Empress 53- soldier 54- ten sword s 55- nine swords 56- eight swords
57. Seven Swords Six swords 58- 60- four swords Three 61- sword 62- two swords 63- sword as s
64. Sultan of Egypt 65- Queen of Sheba 67- Lazzarone 68- ten crowns 69- nine sequins 70- eight ducats
September 71- florins 72- six guineas 74- four crowns 75- three crowns 76- two denarii 77- golden sun
78 - alchemist


..now the light is coming on...... the Hermetic titles make sense, even if the image is borrowed from the Marseille decks....'Four Sticks' is Led Zeppelin song...lol...

Freddie
 

kwaw

Here are the proper true titles of the cards, in the 3 version the cards should not be titled....

1- chaos 2- masonry Hiram 4- pool 5- gospel 6- sky 7- snake
8- eve 9- Solomon ....

Some of those are not the original (or proper true) titles. Masonic and biblical titles such as Hiram's Masonry were added to the 1826 edition by Mongie. They do not appear on the original Type I, nor the Type II or III. Although they are referenced in some of the LWB's that came with them (in the 1910 LWB for the Grimaud Type I for example).

Some modern editions are issued with the wrong LWB. The Etteilla type III Grand Jeu du Oracle des Dames,(1856) for example has been issued with the LWB for the Etteilla Type II (1838) by Julia Orsini (Simon Blocquel). The keywords and meanings are the same, but the descriptions of the cards images don't match up. I don't know the LWB for the LS, or what it is based on.

A pdf copy of L’ART DE TIRER LES CARTES ET LES TAROTS by Aldégonde Pérenna, which is the original text to accompany the 1826 Mongie edition, is available free at Google Books (in French):

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id...ce=gbs_ge_summary_r&cad=0#v=onepage&q&f=false

Aldégonde Pérenna, Polish Sybyl is just one of the pseudonyms of Gabrielle Paban (b.1793), the sister of Mme. Collin de Plancy; others include Gabrielle Salon and Gabrielle Radegonde Provencal Sibyl of the line of Nostradamus.

This is the source/origin for the Masonic and Biblical titles of some of the cards. The c. 1890 & 1910 Grimaud Grand Etteilla I LWB is a reprint of part of this book and the 1969 English-language LWB for the Grimaud Grand Etteilla I is a translation of the same. These variant titles are not from Etteilla and are not part of his original conception.

The text to go with the Etteilla type III was written by Mme. Lemarchand, and is basically a condensed version of Julia Orsini's (aka, Blocquel), concentrating more on the positive DM's (based perhaps on Lemarchand's belief that such use was for 'ladie's entertain' and as such should not leave people feeling stressed or afraid, but amused), with different descriptions of the cards to match the new imagery.

I am not sure what you mean by 'in the 3 version the cards should not be titled'.

Here is card 2 from the three main types (I, II & III) :

02E1andSumadaIIEandIII.jpg
 

Freddie

Thanks for the extra information Kwaw. I have a healthy collection of Grimaud decks and I am aware of their highly entertaining little white books. I assumed Etteilla did not come up with those Masonic - Bible descriptive titles, but I have found them to be helpful with understanding the symbolism/meaning of the images.

I feel that the Marseilles card names-titles down the sides of the 3 deck are too distracting for my OCD, so sorry folks, I should have just said I don't I don't like them. I laugh at myself, because everytime I use the 3, I keep thinking that Moon or Sun card don't belong there.


Freddie
 

kwaw

The text to go with the Etteilla type III was written by Mme. Lemarchand, and is basically a condensed version of Julia Orsini's (aka, Blocquel), concentrating more on the positive DM's (based perhaps on Lemarchand's belief that such use was for 'ladie's entertain' and as such should not leave people feeling stressed or afraid, but amused), with different descriptions of the cards to match the new imagery.

For anyone with some knowledge of French you can download a pdf of the original Les Récréations de la Cartomancie; ou description pitoresque de chacune des cartes du grand jeu de l'Oracle des Dames by Mlle. Lemarchand from google books here:


https://books.google.fr/books?id=Pi...&q=Les Récréations de la Cartomancie;&f=false

(This is the original accompanying book to the Grand Jeu de l'Oracle des Dames (Etteilla type III), published in 1856.)

I feel that the Marseilles card names-titles down the sides of the 3 deck are too distracting for my OCD, so sorry folks, I should have just said I don't I don't like them. I laugh at myself, because every time I use the 3, I keep thinking that Moon or Sun card don't belong there.

I see what you meant now, thanks for the clarification.

For English meanings I think the best online resource to the Etteilla is MikeH's blog, where he has put together much of the translation work he undertook in several threads on this forum:

http://etteillastrumps.blogspot.com.tr/2012/05/cards-1-4.html
 

Freddie

Yes the Miks H. blog is a great resource. I would also suggest people interested in Etteilla read any Occult literature from Europe that is not influenced by the Golden Dawn.

I am still waiting for my Dusserre to arrive. I never noticed how far off the Grimaud 'Grand Etteilla' keywords are. I think I like the G.E. images are better than the 3, but those keywords are very weird. I really like the Grimaud G.E. colouring, maybe I should give a go at using both together.


Freddie