MikeH said:
Beanu: I'm confused. I thought Judgment was for you the middle 6 cards, Briah, and Death the next 6, Yetsirah. Why the switch? Making Death the mental realm and Judgment the emotional realm doesn't make sense to me. Or are you talking about a different switch?
Hi Mike. Sorry, I've been doing my forum stuff in quick snatches in between other stuff, not thinking things through, explaining myself badly, and not reading accurately. I'll try to make amends for that now.
My sequence is based on being fairly close to laying out the cards in their normal numbered sequence, with some "minor" adjustments, starting at the top of the tree and working down. One of the constraints I place on myself is that I don't accept changes in that sequence too easily.
(I also accept Waite's card swap as one of them, because I started workign with Waite)
another issue is that the layout of cards can be read as either the descent or the ascent, with some cards being part of both - i.e. having two different but related meanings (i.e. judgement and death)
Working as the Descent, the normal ordering of cards puts Death as the Card for Briah, and Judgement as the card for Yetzirah. ( I still uncertain as to whether this implies an error in the sequence, deliberate or accidental)
Working as the Ascent, I swap these two.
My best justification for the normal ordering in the Descent, goes along the lines of:
In the Descent, the three special cards represent a transition to the world below. In Atziluth, the One divides into the Two, male and female. The Lovers then represent the attraction between the two, and the nature of being separated. This influence drives the world of Briah - the rationalisation of the divided nature.
Next comes the Death card - mortality, The soul becomes incarnate and must deal with a finite lifespan (or at least a series of them with memory gaps between). The result is the world of emotions, yetzirah - fear of death, liusts, needs, short-term goals and glory. The need to be remembered after death.
Then come religions with their promise of rebirth (Judgement Day),
which leaves us to get on with the day-to-day material process of living.
In the Ascent, the three special cards go as I have described previously, with the death of the emotional mind being replaced by the birth of the rational mind of the spirit,
In each case, ascent or descent, death has to come before rebirth.
So, I tolerate my severe disruption of the normal sequence by swapping Judgement and Death, when working the Ascent (which is more relevant to our human condition), on the assumption that the cards are normally sequenced for the descent.
When I do rearrange cards, I am working on the assumption that there are errors in the normal sequence, caused by
1) normal "chinese whispers" effect introducing error. This may have happened before they started numbering the cards
2) various authors adding their own twists (as I am doing)
3) deliberate obfuscation of the pattern, as would be almost mandatory among occultists.
4) There is no "original" pattern, but we are working towards one. Tarot may be just one more attempt to synthesize a common philosophy from many, as nearly all religious and philosophical authors try to do. Hence adjustments to the sequence are the natural evolution of the cards in operation.
However, If I swap Judgement for Chariot, then the sequence is just plain messed up. Swapping Death for Chariot would be closer to the original sequence, but the overall meaning would be greatly changed.
MikeH said:
What I was proposing was making Chariot the mental realm (and emotion under the control of reason), keeping Death as the emotional realm (lower emotions), and having Judgment be one of the steps in Briah in the ascent. (And of course if Judgment is the card for Yetsirah that makes no sense.) It's perfectly ok not to accept my suggestion, of course, I just want to make sure we understand each other.
I see what you are tying to do. However, let me give another example of a "big picture" card that is in a relatively minor position - the Tower Card.
The Tower sits on rock, has a crown at the top, with a lightning strike"upon" it, and people falling.
If the rock is Malkuth, and
the Crown is Kether, and
the Lightning is the lightning strike down the tree - the sequence through the sefira,
then the Tower is the tree itself, top to bottom.
In alchemy, there is the Tower of Alchemy that can only be climbed by those who know the Ladder of the Wise, so the falling people are those who don't know the ladder. Also indicative of the Fall (lucifer) as is also represented by the Devil card.
All in all, it says to me that in the Descent, Lucifer fell from the Crown to Earth. We can climb back up if we know the Ladder of the Wise. The LAtter of the wise is the Tree of Life, and perhaps the Tarot upon it.
I don't mean to start a side discussion on the Tower or the Devil, just to say that, at the appropriate point in the ascent, we encounter the concept of the entire map of the ascent, whether it be ladder or tower or tree or Tarot, etc.
But that reference to the big pattern does not occupy a major position in the system. It simply exists at the right point in time in the ascent.
Similarly, The chariot exists at the right point in Geburah in Briah. It is the point at which the sharp, intellectual mind (Plato) figures out the cosmology that explains what he has learnt so far (emotions), what he is learning now (figuring out his world) and a vision of where he will be going next.
It is a lesson to the rational mind that the rational mind is not the ultimate.
The rational mind is the white horse, and the student must aspire to become the charioteer, harnessing the power of both emotions and mind, without BEING either emotions or mind.
This theory of mine seems to be supported by the next cards in the ascent - Chesed, Hanged Man, Hermit which show the rational mind evolving its pure logic into a form of self-sacrifice, the realisation that "the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the one" (Star Trek - Spock), and hence the beginings of the spiritual life.
MikeH said:
Also, are you trying to correlate cards and planets with the meanings of the Hebrew names for the sefirot, or just where they are on the tree? If so, what meanings are you using?
Difficult to answer, as I am working backwards from the present, while historians work forwards from the past.
I guess its just the positions on the tree. I had an earlier pattern that just expressed what I saw in the cards. Then someone pointed out that my pattern could easily be mapped onto the tree. Further examinations indicated a good fit.
My basic hypothesis is that the Tarot is an attempt to synthesize a whole bunch of prior religion and philosophy. The traces of all sorts of things can be seen in it. I am trying to figure out what the guiding influences of the original author(s) was. So, I'll take whatever fits best with the mindset of of the renaissance, and its earlier influences.
I also allow for the possibility that the Tarot was a "best fit", and not necessarily a perfect synthesis.
So, I started with the Tarot, found a patter, mapped it to Tree of Life, refined the interpretations etc. Then I added Alchemical images, refined the theory and interpretations, Now I'm looking at astrology, and anything this forum of experts can provide.
As for Astrology, whatever fits best. Italy, being Roman, would probably use the Roman astrology,
except that this is the renaissance, and the older stuff is considered the better. Which indicates Greek, or egyptian, etc.
Since The renaissance used Plato, then I must also consider what influence Greek astrology had on Plato, and so forth.
Ultimately, its a "best fit" process.
I haven't yet considered the gemmatria of the names. I have a personal aversion to such systems, especially the Platonic numerology, dating from the day I learned to do math in various radixes other than the usual base-10. (for example, "casting out 9s" in base 10 would equate to casting out 7s in base-8, and give very different results) But I should consider it, because that is what they believed then. It also gives different sequencing of ideas, as you have pointed out.
Historically, the Tarot seems to date from about the time that the Zohar was evolving from other theories (that synthetic effect again), so its difficult to tell which systems actually influenced the Tarot. It is likely that the Zohar and the Tarot had common ancestors, rather than one coming from the other.
Then there are more remote influences, such as the German links.
Is the Hanged man
Odin hanging from the world tree, or
Zeus being hidden from his father, or
Plato's soul becoming inverted as it incarnates, or
an italian shaming technique, or
a synthesis of several of these?
I doubt whether history is ever going to tell us this, or not for the whole majors arcana at any rate. For me at least, there are two "right" answers.
One is what the designers were thinking at the time,
and the other is what the synthesis might eventually become - one best fit answer to it all- Life the universe and everything.
So, any comments you have on any related topic - names of sephira, numerical systems, astrology systems, opinions of the times,etc.
are all welcome. I just can't say what I will ultimately accept personally.
Furthermore, I don't claim "ownership" of this system. It is an attempt at re-discovery, not a new proprietary system. By all means swap hards for you own use, promote your ideas, etc.
The ultimate guide to what's in, whats out, is simply a best fit over all available data.
And I'm rambling. Bye for now.
