Good Golden Dawn Deck?

sworm09

Recently I've obtained Robert Wang's Qabalistic Tarot...and I'm eager to begin using Tarot as a tool to explore the Qabalah. The problem is that I can't choose a good Golden Dawn Deck. I own the RWS and the Thoth. The RWS misses some of the symbolism (most of the symbolism) and the Thoth poses the opposite problem; it has too much symbolism (Thelemic stuff that can't be ignored). I'm not sure if either of this decks would make a good study/divination deck Qabalistically, but I could be wrong.

My other choices for decks include Robert Wang's Golden Dawn Tarot, The Golden Dawn Magical Tarot, and the Hermetic Tarot. The artwork of Robert Wang's Golden Dawn Tarot is frankly repulsive to me and the artwork of the Golden Dawn Magical Tarot is sort of "ehhh", but all of the symbols are clear. The Hermetic Tarot seems to capture all of the symbolism (and more) but it's somewhat impenetrable.

As picky as I am, what would you recommend as a good Golden Dawn based deck?
 

Richard

There's The Initiatory Tarot of the Golden Dawn, but I know nothing about it except what is here. The crudeness of the Wang deck may, in effect, be a touch of authenticity, as each member of the original HOGD had to make their own deck according to Mathers' instructions. One can imagine the resulting Tarot atrocities. The B.O.T.A. and Waite decks are compatible with the GD's Qabalah-Tarot correlations but deviate from the specific GD imagery. The Dowson Hermetic is aesthetically uneven. Many of the images are as crude as those of the Regardie-Wang. Moreover, it's authenticity is compromised by the fact that it does not incorporate the GD's color scales.
 

Zephyros

Well, at the risk of sounding like a broken record, I would advise you to go with the Thoth in any case. You don't have to subscribe to Thelema in order to understand the Kabbalah in it, and much of the Thelema is told through Kabbalah anyway. In my opinion, it is the best any GD dropout ever did, and it is a good, solid Kabbalistic deck, through which I myself have been studying for about two years now (just past the halfway point!).

Although LRichard, whom I hold in high esteem, likes Wang's authenticity, I myself think it one of the most butt-ugly decks in existence, and it is unfortunately typical of GD decks as a whole in that they're unattractive. The Hermetic is magnificent, but I could never read with it. There is that new Lo Scarabeo deck, the Initiatory Tarot, that looks interesting, although it borrows heavily from the RWS and is altogether too cartoonish for my more austere tastes. As to authenticity in the colors, well, that could come later, but I'm guessing your first task is to master basic Kabbalah, which could take a few years. The Thoth's colors could be thought of as authentic GD, but Harris mixed colors there in a maddening, almost incomprehensible manner (yet always according to the rules) so the Thoth is ill-suited for color study.

In short, there's no easy answer. Still, once you start on your study, ALL GD decks will open up to you, and you'll see the method behind the madness in all of them. So ultimately it doesn't matter what deck you use. Start your study as per Wang, learn the basic definitions of the Sephiroth and when you get to the paths and begin to analyze them, you'll find it all begins to fall into place, regardless of the deck.
 

Richard

closrapexa said:
......So ultimately it doesn't matter what deck you use. Start your study as per Wang, learn the basic definitions of the Sephiroth and when you get to the paths and begin to analyze them, you'll find it all begins to fall into place, regardless of the deck.
Click to expand...

You can even use the Tarot de Marseille.

Some historians think that the absence of evidence proves that there was no Kabbalistic influence in the development of Tarot, but that is a logical fallacy. (There was no evidence that space is curved (rather than Euclidean) until Einstein conjectured it mathematically in the Theory of Relativity, and subsequent observation proved it empirically.)

I was delighted when I went through my new Isis Marseille deck to make sure that everything was there. The ordering of each and every suit was Ace, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, Page, King, Queen, Knight (French titles, of course). That would be the correct Golden Dawn (and Thoth) ordering of the court cards. (Wang got a little confused in this regard, but it's no big deal.)
 

sworm09

closrapexa said:
Well, at the risk of sounding like a broken record, I would advise you to go with the Thoth in any case. You don't have to subscribe to Thelema in order to understand the Kabbalah in it, and much of the Thelema is told through Kabbalah anyway. In my opinion, it is the best any GD dropout ever did, and it is a good, solid Kabbalistic deck, through which I myself have been studying for about two years now (just past the halfway point!).

Although LRichard, whom I hold in high esteem, likes Wang's authenticity, I myself think it one of the most butt-ugly decks in existence, and it is unfortunately typical of GD decks as a whole in that they're unattractive. The Hermetic is magnificent, but I could never read with it. There is that new Lo Scarabeo deck, the Initiatory Tarot, that looks interesting, although it borrows heavily from the RWS and is altogether too cartoonish for my more austere tastes. As to authenticity in the colors, well, that could come later, but I'm guessing your first task is to master basic Kabbalah, which could take a few years. The Thoth's colors could be thought of as authentic GD, but Harris mixed colors there in a maddening, almost incomprehensible manner (yet always according to the rules) so the Thoth is ill-suited for color study.

In short, there's no easy answer. Still, once you start on your study, ALL GD decks will open up to you, and you'll see the method behind the madness in all of them. So ultimately it doesn't matter what deck you use. Start your study as per Wang, learn the basic definitions of the Sephiroth and when you get to the paths and begin to analyze them, you'll find it all begins to fall into place, regardless of the deck.
Click to expand...

Gotcha. The only problem with using the Thoth that I've faced thus far is the Tzaddi/Star fiasco. When I read the entry for Tzaddi in Wang's book, it's referring to the Star being the Natural Intelligence, a return of perception to the natural state of Netzach, or as he called it "The Garden of Eden restored" on a lower level.

That makes sense.

Also, Crowley giving Heh to the Star ALSO makes sense as Heh is the cosmic mother..a title unfitting for the Emperor..despite the fact that Heh is a a path uniting Father to Son and creating peace through masculine power.

I can see both sides of the argument and when studying Wang's book, using the Thoth is difficult as I have to force The Star to be Tzaddi or everything falls out of place. I guess all I can really do is ignore Crowley giving Heh to the star.

LRichard said:
You can even use the Tarot de Marseille.

Some historians think that the absence of evidence proves that there was no Kabbalistic influence in the development of Tarot, but that is a logical fallacy. (There was no evidence that space is curved (rather than Euclidean) until Einstein conjectured it mathematically in the Theory of Relativity, and subsequent observation proved it empirically.)

I was delighted when I went through my new Isis Marseille deck to make sure that everything was there. The ordering of each and every suit was Ace, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, Page, King, Queen, Knight (French titles, of course). That would be the correct Golden Dawn (and Thoth) ordering of the court cards. (Wang got a little confused in this regard, but it's no big deal.)
Click to expand...

If it's the paths that matter over the deck, then I could surely use the Marseille deck. As for the order of the court cards, do the Kings correspond to the Princes of the Thoth deck and the Knights of the RWS?
 

Richard

sworm09 said:
.......If it's the paths that matter over the deck, then I could surely use the Marseille deck. As for the order of the court cards, do the Kings correspond to the Princes of the Thoth deck and the Knights of the RWS?
Click to expand...
The Knights of the Marseille and RWS correspond to the Knights of the Thoth. The Kings of the Marseille and RWS correspond to the Princes of the Thoth. Any other correspondence runs into problems at some point or other.

Here's how I keep it straight (thanks to Mary Greer, who is an RWS expert). Knights ride horseback. Princes (whether called Kings or whatever) do not ride horseback.

In case this sounds weird, Abrac mentioned in a post not long ago that when choosing a significator, Waite specifies that Knights should be used for older males, Kings for younger adult males. (The pecking order favors Knights over Kings.)

ETA. Waite felt that his Golden Dawn initiatory oaths forbade the revealing of the GD Tarot innovations, so in the Pictorial Key he placed the Fool between Judgement and the World (a la Eliphas Levi) and Kings ahead of Knights (as in the traditional Marseille). This apparently satisfied his conscience in the matter of oaths.
 

Freddie

I perfer the Wang deck to both Thoth and Rider-Waite as it feels more authentic to me. The Wang Golden Dawn deck has a fair amount of stunning cards, but a few cards in the deck are not attractive at all (at least not for me anyway).

If you are very picky you may want to steer clear of this deck unless it really calls to you as many find it to be too bland.



Freddie
 

sworm09

Freddie said:
I perfer the Wang deck to both Thoth and Rider-Waite as it feels more authentic to me. The Wang Golden Dawn deck has a fair amount of stunning cards, but a few cards in the deck are not attractive at all (at least not for me anyway).

If you are very picky you may want to steer clear of this deck unless it really calls to you as many find it to be too bland.



Freddie
Click to expand...

I feel pulled to each of the decks BUT the Wang deck.

The deceptive crudity and simplicity of the RWS artwork is what attracts me to it.
The extremely detailed and stunning imagery of the Thoth is what pulls me toward that deck. The bold colors of the Golden Dawn Magical Tarot are what call me to that particular deck. The immensely detailed black and white drawings of the Hermetic are what draw me to that deck.

The Wang deck? All I see is blandness, small figures, and LOADS of unused white space. I'm not saying that the deck is bad, just no something that I enjoy artistically.
 

od23

I too have been interested in an attractive, Golden Dawn / Book T based deck. The Wang deck is not appealing to me at all, so its out. Interestingly enough, it was not appealing to Wang or Regardie either. From Wang's own words:

"Both Alice and Regardie had been positive influences in my life and it took me quite
some time to realize that the real reason for my rift with Regardie was that I had done a
terrible job of painting the Golden Dawn Tarot cards. I did my best at the time, but
whenever I look at these badly drawn, strange little wooden figures I cringe in
embarrassment. It’s no wonder that Regardie didn’t want to talk to me after the cards were
published."

I think Tabatha and Chic Cicero did a fantastic job at their tarot, and if you want something that is dead on accurate with G.: D.: symbolism, this is going to be the way to go:

» http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ISBN=0738723398/ref=nosim/aeclectic/

My favorite deck has to be the Thoth Deck, but, as previously mentioned, the associations and ordering are not accurate with Book T...so it is right out.

The most exciting deck for me is the Tarot of the Golden Serpent by Sabastian Haines. You just have to see for yourself. It is a work in progress, and, IMO, this is going to be the one to own:

» http://stalkinghyena.deviantart.com/gallery/11820203

I use the Frankie Albano version of the RWS. Supposedly he took the RWS deck and applied Case's BOTA colors to it (and adds the Rainbow to Temperance), which are more in line with Book T.

» http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ISBN=0880794666/ref=nosim/aeclectic/

.: oD
 

nisaba

sworm09 said:
Recently I've obtained Robert Wang's Qabalistic Tarot...and I'm eager to begin using Tarot as a tool to explore the Qabalah. The problem is that I can't choose a good Golden Dawn Deck. I own the RWS and the Thoth.
Click to expand...
They are both GD-influenced decks.

Robert Wang himself designed this Tarot deck, and I have a deep fondles for it because I have bit two degrees' separation from Israel Regardie <smile>.

We've been talking about another great GD deck, the Hermetic, which probably, if I didn't have personal loyalties, I'd like even better.

I disagree with your comment that it's impenetrable - rich and lush are words I'd probably prefer.
 
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