Book in English! to help with Tarot de Marseille ....

tmgrl2

I have been meaning to start this thread for a while now...
jmd may decide to move to books/media, but I thought it would attract attention here first since those of us who are French-challenged are always looking for literature in English re TdM.

There have been some great links in other threads to websites with interpretations for the pip cards and for Majors.

Recently, I went to our local library and they had two books on Tarot. One was by Silvie Simon: The Tarot: Art, Mysticism, and Divination. She uses primarily Grimaud TdM pictures (a few references to other decks) for the Majors and has about forty pages of discussion on the pips.

As with any "self-contained" piece of literature, there are some anomalies and some ideas one may wish to sort through and discard. However, overall, this is a very good book, IMO, to use to start with TdM if one doesn't read French.

Briefly (LOL, when has tmgrl every done anything "briefly?"}

She gives 1-2 pages to each Major and discusses it in terms of its placement....She brings in elements of numerology, the Tao Te Ching, Kabbalah, The Tree of Life (Sephiroth),Hermeticism, and Indian Brahmin references to name a few.

She gives a good description of the pictures and some meanings of various elements...I feel she also offers a fairly rich disscussion of possible respresentations and interpretations. She uses "Le Batteleur" for The Magician but then talks about "The Magician" which some "purists" may find not to their liking..But she then goes on to call The Magicina...Mage, Juggler, Minstrel, Sorcerer, Mountebank, Bagad, or Pagad. She discusses various cards in relationship to other cards and talks about both complimentary aspects and aspects that might be negative depending on reading, reader and position...

Simon also intersperses these 1-2 pages encapsulatons with running text on The Powers, The History, The Philosophy of Tarot.

There are approximately forty pages devoted to the Minor cards. Some of the interpretations of these seem to me somewhat limiting, although not bad, but less rich than one might find in some of the more recent French literature (Klea for example)

Most of her bibiolographical references were from French literature.

For the Fool, since this much debated card and it's role in all Tarot but especiallly in the TdM, I feel she does a fairly good job of discussion and description. She talks about origin of the word Le Mat...At one point she places the Fool at the end of the 21 Majors, but then almost contradicts herself, since the bulk of the two-page description talks about The Fool as
having crossed the threshold between the two worlds...he no longer sees the eartly life from the same point of view....Like Lao-tzu , he thinks that 'the further one goes, the less one knows.' It is the Fool's freedom that allows him to go forward. This card is the one of irrationality, irrationality before birth and after death. ...the card of Wisdom...indicates indifference, freedom, chance, but also unreasonable impulses, unexpected disturbances, estrangement, the lack of practical sense, vagrancy and disillusion....It cam be anywhere and nowhere..itis always unpredictable and unexpected.

She combines the Fool with each of the 21 others to come up with a meaning....

The book was published in 1986 and there are copies, used and maybe new at Amazon.com. I paid about $3.00 for it. It cost more to ship it.

So that's my opening post about the book...I thought that it might be a good "keeper" for English TdM fans.

terri
 

punchinella

Thanks for the review tmgrl, I appreciate it. It sounds as though this is to some extent a how-to type of book, focused on reading with a Marseilles deck (??)

You know what I wish I could find is a beginner's guide to Marseilles iconography (in English). Something focused on analysis of the images themselves (for example, a book that would just point out the obvious . . . like for example the way Le Mat fits over the top of the figure in trump XIII . . . )

I would also appreciate a simple & straightforward timeline, detailing when & where tarot first 'appeared' . . . I suppose I probably need to go to Stuart Kaplan, or A Wicked Pack of Cards (?) for this (neither of which I currently own). Just out of curiosity, does Silvie Simone cover this at all?

When I first discovered tarot, I found no dearth of information available; but now, as I move into exploration of the Marseilles deck, I feel as though I'm floating in a morass, a great & infinitely expansive sea of ignorance; oh for the life-raft of a beginner's guide! (& oh for bound as opposed to cyber-format . . . it'd be so nice to peruse it over buckwheat groats of a morning :D )
 

Jewel-ry

punchinella said:

When I first discovered tarot, I found no dearth of information available; but now, as I move into exploration of the Marseilles deck, I feel as though I'm floating in a morass, a great & infinitely expansive sea of ignorance; oh for the life-raft of a beginner's guide!

This is me!!! Still floundering, but determined not to give up :D

P.S.Thanks for the review terri, I might get along to my local library and check this one out!

J :)
 

tmgrl2

I know what you mean, punchinella....I have Kaplan...and it's a "wade" to find what I want...but Simon's book is a very nice addtion to have handy....besides it's Cheap...er, reasonable used...

terri
 

Shalott

Thanks for the recommendation, tmgrl2!

I totally agree with this feeling Punchinella describes...I love "The Complete Idiot's Guide" 's approach and I SOOO wish they would do one for Marseille...the new edition of this book even pictures a marseille deck on the cover and I SO got my hopes up. But, alas, just more on RWS.

Here's what I wish: someone who is fluent in French would translate some of these great books by Marteau, Sedillot, the authors I keep finding praised here, then turn the translation into USGames and let them deal with the legal stuff. If I were bilingual I swear I would be working on this now. Pretty cushy way to make some money, if ya ask me! Unfortunately I don't see how I could possibly learn French well enough to accomplish this, so I'm giving away what I think woud be a neat idea. Obviously, the publishers aren't going to do it on their own or they would have by now. Just my 2 pents...er sorry DENIERS! ;)
 

tmgrl2

I agree, Shalott...maybe Diana will get to it now! Even what I read in French ...is not as good as some of Simon's book...so I find it valuable. Jonathan Dee's Illustrated Guide to the Tarot not bad either...in English but using Italian cards...another "ancient" deck.

Klea's stuff and Sedillot work for me when I want to look at a particular element that strikes me....

But with Simon, I am feeling on some pretty comfortable ground...In truth...when one gets to the minors...learning the numbers and their correspondences applies across all decks..and we have some great threads here...just search "numbers" and they come up. I love Umbrae's and Thirteen's ....good resources right here at AT and can be used with TdM.

terri
 

jmd

It should be also worth remembering that many of the classics which were originally in French have in fact already been translated (Levi, Tomberg, Maxwell, Wirth, Papus come to mind without trying). Of the 'classics', Marteau is the exception.

The 'cost' of translating - for the sake of translation - is usually higher than the writing of a new book. As an example, the translation of a document with relatively specialised educational terms (and there would be similarly specialised esoteric or Tarot specific terms) is about 5 - 6000 Euros.

Most of the works which have been translated have been done out of, it seems, more of a sense that here was a document worth having available. Except possibly in rarer cases, I suspect that the translated works were undertaken as undertakings whilst being paid for other engagements - whether 'research' or for one's personal or teaching (or esoteric order) benefits.

I once started translating the Tarot-relevant parts from Dr Carton La science occulte et les sciences occultes (mentioned in Meditations on the Tarot). Though I'll slowly and sporadically continue, unless I suddenly found the time, such translation - and this is only an example - reflects some of the difficulties.

In addition, and as mentioned by tmgrl2, some that is written (that I have read) in French (or English) is not very good... and some more modern texts rely, in any case, on materials published in English, and merely 'applied' to the Marseille, without reference to the Marseille as Marseille.
 

Shalott

...or Marie-Therese des Longchamps book (whose name I pronounce exactly as it looks) that Rusty Neopn once mentioned. I found it at either amazon.canada or amazon.france, and I'm all should i just get it and get the jist of it?[/] Maybe one o these days.

ARGH jmd why??? I've got to be able to find SOMEONE who will translate! Can't we show that there's a market for it, just by directing a publisher to this very forum? "See look how many non-French speakers are interested!"

I did get Joseph Maxwell's book and Stuart Kaplan's. Kaplan's looks worth reading, although his treatment of the minors isn't very thorough and that's the whole issue, Maxwell, I've skimmed through and found myself :confused: pretty much over everything. Very slowly picking my way through the table of contents here and Kris Hadar's site, at least HE has an English mirror!

The way RWS dominates the English-speaking market reminds me of MicroSquash. You can USE Mac or Linux...but you have to jumps through hoops for it.
 

punchinella

jmd said:
It should be also worth remembering that many of the classics which were originally in French have in fact already been translated (Levi, Tomberg, Maxwell, Wirth, Papus come to mind without trying).
Do any of these classics specifically address Marseilles iconography?

[Oops, edit, yes I realize that Tomberg does (?) but what about the others?]
 

Shalott

Is the name Valentin Tomberg? I'm finding some matches at Amazon. Maybe more luck at amazon.cananadia...