"Fate" "destiny" and long term predictions

Sazzle

I like everyones views here its very refreshing :)

Totally agree with you tarot_quest. Events can be changed, but there are things that are predestined. I think we have a similar view.

Tanga - I do agree it is better not to know somethings. Maybe we won't work as hard, or maybe we won't learn our lessons if we knew. After all, I believe that we come on this earth for a reason. I think my issue is, let us say we are stuck in a rut - 21 years old, an adult, yet still mentally (looking back, wishing i was still that young haha) young. Confused, as all your friends know what they want to do for a living, or went to university, or work in a store and are happy with that path in life. You as a 21 year old consult the tarots asking what your destiny is, for help, for guidance, to know what path you should take, what you purpose in life is. I do think some come on this earth as healers, some to have a great career, some to find love and build a family, etc. At this point, I believe the tarot should be able to predict what path you should take, what you are good at and should be doing with life. It is very easy to veer off our life purpose if we continue to listen to our ego as opposed to our self and spirit guides/god. Then this is where I become confused - DOES the tarot read for this?! Logically, if it predicts the future (based on the now), or helps you to correct a path, should it not know your spirits desires and the best you can possible achieve in life - if the purpose is to help you be the best you can be, why would it not tell you :)
 

Sazzle

I am sure it can :) (and I agree with your entire paragraph, well said!). But think about it this way. You are learning maths, let's say for grade 1. Why would you look at the math content for grade 5, if you are only learning the basics of grade 1?

I am just trying to say that knowing too many things in advance could screw up 1) what you do by the time it happens 2) the final outcome. Imagine that you would know 10 years in advance who will be your life partner... Ok fine, but are you going to wait for 10 years and do not get other romantic connections, because you love this person and believes tarot's message (i.e. He will come back)? Worst case scenario, you did not get the message correctly, outch! You did wait for 10 years and it never happens. Or you were sad all the time you were waiting because you don't meet men that are ''as nice'', since you know that a better man will surely come in 10 years.

Now, I think that in some situations, it is surely good the know some long term predictions, but not always.

Ahhh see yes this is totally my thoughts! I do agree, but I posted my previous response after this before reading this one. I can see why tarot won't tell you certain future things, but things about your life path, we're here for lessons as well as fate- the way you should be going, to reach your maximum potential, your life soul purpose in life. That's what my area of concern is :)
 

Tanga

Only you can be the best you can , WITH Tarot to aid - not Tarot telling you what to do...
As IT - doesn't know - only You do with it's help (imo. Lol.).

Plus 21 can be really young.
Some people know - and some people never know exactly what it is that they "should be doing" or are "supposed to be doing"...etc.
(And a great majority of people on this planet - don't even have that choice).

Plus - my whole point is "veering off the plan" (assuming there is one) - is the whole point of the plan - because that experience is what "builds" you into who you then are - for the plan.


The only way to find out in this case, is to experiment and explore.
Or since you are into fate - TRUST that you will just bump into exactly what it is, you are destined to be/do.

:heart:
 

CharlotteK

I believe the tarot should be able to predict what path you should take, what you are good at and should be doing with life. It is very easy to veer off our life purpose if we continue to listen to our ego as opposed to our self and spirit guides/god.

Figuring out your purpose, making mistakes, taking the detours and backtracking out of cul-de-sacs, learning about your ego and it's foibles and getting to know who you REALLY are... IS the path.

Sent from my D6603 using Tapatalk
 

Sazzle

Figuring out your purpose, making mistakes, taking the detours and backtracking out of cul-de-sacs, learning about your ego and it's foibles and getting to know who you REALLY are... IS the path.

Sent from my D6603 using Tapatalk

Exactly, it's the path that leads you to your destination (or my wording, destiny). If a 60 year old woman has made her mistakes, worked hard , found her true self and is happy within her own skin.... BUT her entire life been unlucky in love, despite that being the one thing in life she wants, a husband, a house with kids, grand children.. some people are not lucky enough to find someone (if they are wanting someone to share their life with that is). Should the tarot not be able to predict that she is destined to be alone. At this point should you not be able to ask and receive a clear "give up- that's not in your life" and just enjoy whatever time you have left? :)
 

Nemia

Sazzle, that's a very harsh belief! Do you really believe that if a person is not "destined" to find a partner, no matter what she does she won't find a partner? She is destined to be sad, and her neighbor can do whatever she wants and will find complete happiness? I can't believe that. That would mean that the whole history of the universe and humanity is just a mechanical toy that is running while it pushes us about.

I believe something totally different. I believe that the future is open. Molecules shift and shiver and change all the time - everything in nature changes and breathes and dies and comes back - humans grow, develop, change and learn - no, this world is not a machine that runs and can't be changed. It's a complex net, and if you decide with your free will to pull one rope, others will feel it.

We do have the possibility to use our mental powers, to learn from experience, to listen to our guts - whatever we need in order to make decisions. I believe in the fundamental right of every human being to make decisions, to regret decisions, to change decisions and to make new decisions.

Otherwise, we abolish human conscience and responsibility. Himmler could just have said: what do you want from me? It was the destiny of millions of Jewish, Romani, homosexual, communist and handicapped people to die at our hands, I'm not guilty!

If everything is destiny anyway, why read tarot? Then the outcome of your reading is destined anyway and won't change a thing. And if you're destined not to know the future then no tarot reading in the world can give you an answer.

Wow, I didn't know I feel so strongly about that topic! I hope I didn't step on your toes, sorry!!!! But I believe in the liberty, autonomy and responsibility of the human spirit, in the limits obviously of our personal context. I couldn't live in your universe. It would depress me terribly.

I couldn't enjoy my husband's smile if I had to think that it was simply his destiny to marry me, and not a choice from his heart that could have gone differently - and that was a wonderful unexpected gift from life. That would feel like an arranged marriage to me....

But if you believe that, I'm sure you have good reason for it. I think many people in this world believe it. It probably helps to cope with loss. Why not try to ask the cards about your destiny? I always prefer to read in order to get "what to do" answers, but why not discuss with the cards your belief of destiny, and explore it? Sounds like an intriguing idea.
 

Sazzle

Sazzle, that's a very harsh belief! Do you really believe that if a person is not "destined" to find a partner, no matter what she does she won't find a partner? She is destined to be sad, and her neighbor can do whatever she wants and will find complete happiness? I can't believe that. That would mean that the whole history of the universe and humanity is just a mechanical toy that is running while it pushes us about.

I believe something totally different. I believe that the future is open. Molecules shift and shiver and change all the time - everything in nature changes and breathes and dies and comes back - humans grow, develop, change and learn - no, this world is not a machine that runs and can't be changed. It's a complex net, and if you decide with your free will to pull one rope, others will feel it.

We do have the possibility to use our mental powers, to learn from experience, to listen to our guts - whatever we need in order to make decisions. I believe in the fundamental right of every human being to make decisions, to regret decisions, to change decisions and to make new decisions.

Otherwise, we abolish human conscience and responsibility. Himmler could just have said: what do you want from me? It was the destiny of millions of Jewish, Romani, homosexual, communist and handicapped people to die at our hands, I'm not guilty!

If everything is destiny anyway, why read tarot? Then the outcome of your reading is destined anyway and won't change a thing. And if you're destined not to know the future then no tarot reading in the world can give you an answer.

Wow, I didn't know I feel so strongly about that topic! I hope I didn't step on your toes, sorry!!!! But I believe in the liberty, autonomy and responsibility of the human spirit, in the limits obviously of our personal context. I couldn't live in your universe. It would depress me terribly.

I couldn't enjoy my husband's smile if I had to think that it was simply his destiny to marry me, and not a choice from his heart that could have gone differently - and that was a wonderful unexpected gift from life. That would feel like an arranged marriage to me....

But if you believe that, I'm sure you have good reason for it. I think many people in this world believe it. It probably helps to cope with loss. Why not try to ask the cards about your destiny? I always prefer to read in order to get "what to do" answers, but why not discuss with the cards your belief of destiny, and explore it? Sounds like an intriguing idea.

Haha no no stepping on toes :) nice to hear others views.
Although my belief isn't as black and white as you've made it. I DO believe in free will, and the concept of actions and consequences. So don't get me wrong. Do I believe everyone who is in a couple was destined to be with that person? Hell no! People make the choice to be with that person - some because of love, some money, some merely not to be alone. I do believe there are a few Individuals out there for each person, but not every one ends up with them. Again, because of choices they make. I think the whole fate/destiny thing is too complex to say everything that happens is your fate. I disagree with that. BUT , I do believe you can go down a path, one that is your dream, and hit a road block till the very end. That simply was not your destiny. Those we quote or that we're are well known, were they not normal individuals like us? Some did nothing but live their life and stumbled upon the fame in later years. Some chased it and succeeded. Others try so hard and never accomplish it, not due to lack of talent either! Also in my earlier post I distinguished my personal feelings on fate and destiny. In that I believe they are two different things. Fate following your choices, decisions , leading to lessons, learning and more decisions, again leading to another fate! Destiny I truly believe some are destined for good things, however one would precieve good, some not.
You hear some truly horrific stories about children being abused. Taken in to care homes. Abused more. Adopted. Abused more. Heartbreaking stories. Whilst they do not happen often (I should hope), is that not destiny? That's not choice, not fate, They have no choice in this matter. No lesson in this. Additionally it's Pure bad luck too. Though Some later grow to want to help those abused too, to teach others how to cope, to learn from such horrific ordeals and give back to society In order to try help or save at least one person. Ok a highly depression example but it's not just people who are destined for good things, I do believe some people are destined to have a hard life. For whatever reason.
I disagree that it's depressing though (well, minus the above scenario), it's quite beautiful really. Knowing a series of events happen that will lead you to the one you could end up marrying and having beautiful kids with. Or events leading to that change in your life you've been waiting for. Those are exciting moments in life and the flow into which one leads to another is the beauty of the mysteries of life or gods work. Those that know for example they will never marry - despite wanting to- can simply move on, forget about it, 8instead of wasting years in pain, searching.
 

Nemia

Okay, I understand you better now. An interesting combination of destiny and free will :)

Still, I'm not totally on board ;-) The children with the horrible fate - they're being pushed around by others. They have no choice, but those who exploit them have. And they have later in life choices of their own. Of course we're all bound by circumstance, education, by the world we're born into. I'd call it chance, not destiny. And people can have horribly bad luck without contributing to it at all, of course, obviously, you see it every day.

I agree with you that the model of "complete control over our destinies" is an illusion. Wills collide, decisions have consequences, it's difficult to know. In retrospect, we may feel that fate led us to the most wonderful partner, job or family in the world, but is that so?

Well, there is the idea of the soulmate or the besherter, the one who's intended for you, and it sounds romantic, yes. Plato's two halves cut apart etc. I'm not sure I'm on board with that. I think it makes the idea of a relationship appear very much more simple than it is. Even with the twin soul whom you love more than life itself etc, there are conflicts. That's life. We're still individuals. There is suitability, but i see it as a scale, not as something absolute, black or white.

I'm an extremely difficult person, so I don't know whether I'd have stayed with anyone else but the one I'm living with for now nearly 30 years. I guess anyone else would have run away :angel: But is that a proof that our love was destined and had to happen? and that our life is a bed of roses since we know? No. And there are many couples who were sure when they met that it's for life. And it wasn't.

I think by idealizing a future partner and constructing a chain of "it has to be so"-events you run the risk of setting up your expectations much too high.

We all live in such chains of events all the time. In retrospect, we see the patterns because this is what our brains do, they make patterns. But I don't think we can construct this line into the future.

If you're looking for a partner, I'd say from my life experience, don't put too much pressure on yourself and a future partner. Let things run freely to see how they develop. And rely on your ability to make the right choice at the right time.

And are people really today so set upon marrying and having beautiful children? I know lots of happy singles (and unhappy people in relationships), lots of happy childless people. There are so many ways to live a life. And a single life is worth living, why not?

And having children? For every joy you pay with worry, vulnerability and also sadness. Sometimes I'm so afraid for them, for having sent into this bitter world young people who have to fend for themselves as well have to, and then I think: wouldn't it be better not to feel this responsibility? not to have these fears for them, the worry?

It's not just the overwhelming joy of feeding a baby, kissing a toddler. It's seeing a young man disappear from view at the airport, off on his way into the big world where you can't follow him. And there you stand and smile and wave until he can't see you anymore, and then cry. It's not easy. There's no free lunch in life, for nothing.

I think the main thing is to love the life you have and make the best of it, and know that you're valuable, no matter what status. Life is now. Enjoy it now.

Sorry for the rant.
 

Sazzle

Okay, I understand you better now. An interesting combination of destiny and free will :)

Still, I'm not totally on board ;-) The children with the horrible fate - they're being pushed around by others. They have no choice, but those who exploit them have. And they have later in life choices of their own. Of course we're all bound by circumstance, education, by the world we're born into. I'd call it chance, not destiny. And people can have horribly bad luck without contributing to it at all, of course, obviously, you see it every day.

I agree with you that the model of "complete control over our destinies" is an illusion. Wills collide, decisions have consequences, it's difficult to know. In retrospect, we may feel that fate led us to the most wonderful partner, job or family in the world, but is that so?

Well, there is the idea of the soulmate or the besherter, the one who's intended for you, and it sounds romantic, yes. Plato's two halves cut apart etc. I'm not sure I'm on board with that. I think it makes the idea of a relationship appear very much more simple than it is. Even with the twin soul whom you love more than life itself etc, there are conflicts. That's life. We're still individuals. There is suitability, but i see it as a scale, not as something absolute, black or white.

I'm an extremely difficult person, so I don't know whether I'd have stayed with anyone else but the one I'm living with for now nearly 30 years. I guess anyone else would have run away :angel: But is that a proof that our love was destined and had to happen? and that our life is a bed of roses since we know? No. And there are many couples who were sure when they met that it's for life. And it wasn't.

I think by idealizing a future partner and constructing a chain of "it has to be so"-events you run the risk of setting up your expectations much too high.

We all live in such chains of events all the time. In retrospect, we see the patterns because this is what our brains do, they make patterns. But I don't think we can construct this line into the future.

If you're looking for a partner, I'd say from my life experience, don't put too much pressure on yourself and a future partner. Let things run freely to see how they develop. And rely on your ability to make the right choice at the right time.

And are people really today so set upon marrying and having beautiful children? I know lots of happy singles (and unhappy people in relationships), lots of happy childless people. There are so many ways to live a life. And a single life is worth living, why not?

And having children? For every joy you pay with worry, vulnerability and also sadness. Sometimes I'm so afraid for them, for having sent into this bitter world young people who have to fend for themselves as well have to, and then I think: wouldn't it be better not to feel this responsibility? not to have these fears for them, the worry?

It's not just the overwhelming joy of feeding a baby, kissing a toddler. It's seeing a young man disappear from view at the airport, off on his way into the big world where you can't follow him. And there you stand and smile and wave until he can't see you anymore, and then cry. It's not easy. There's no free lunch in life, for nothing.

I think the main thing is to love the life you have and make the best of it, and know that you're valuable, no matter what status. Life is now. Enjoy it now.

Sorry for the rant.

The complete opposite. I enjoyed the rant! Your wording and ideas are put together so well :)

Of course when I say destiny and things predestined to happen, I don't necessarily mean it comes easy. Life is sometimes just toils and tribulations and at others things just seem perfect. You don't get to those perfect moments ,even if it is for just a minute, without hard work and the right choices.

I agree yes not every one sees the happy family and 2.5 children as their dream life. That was just my example scenario ,I guess you hit the nail on the head that it's my personal dream. As with everything though you have to work at making it right and it comes with its own stresses, as does everything. Though your imagery of a young man going off on an adventure really gave me a strong feeling!

But I still can't shake the whole idea that some things are meant to happen and you're meant to meet certain people. The whole you can try with all your might to make something work, be t a dream , career or a relationship, but if it doesn't work isn't that just the universe (or whatever one believes in) saying slow down this just isn't for you (which to me equates to destiny). And such wouldn't the tarot tell you - for instance. Every time I go on a date with a new guy I will always ask the tarot what the outcome of me and him will be. One that sticks to my mind was the wheel rx as outcome and 3 swords in the near future. To me that was screaming third person (possibly ex, he had broken up with 3 monthly prior) and not your destiny (wheel rx). We dated for a month seeing each other very often. He was all so in to me. Alas one moment later he never spoke to me again. Afterwards when I never heard from
Him I did a few reading. Every time wheel upright. To me that was telling me I was on the right path (without him). Oddly too, I consulted my bible soon after asking god what the reason was to send me someone who on paper was my ideal man just to take him away. The passage "a common destiny for all".
To me it all made sense. But then again, I believe :) to others they could read the reading differently (I am not the best reader to be fair) or say mere coincidence , but the bible passage that came up from god hit me hard. Again that's another debate because a belief an unseen man did this is a crazy idea too! :p

FYI thanks for the reply. I really really loved your insight!
 

Nemia

Thank you, this is really interesting especially nobody knows what's really true ... and many many good wishes, may you achieve in life what you wish. If you're a Christian, what's the role of prayer? Jesus says we can pray and we'll be heard, doesn't he? You don't need to answer, obviously :)