The Medieval Housebook

Ross, I agree with you.
I think it is not much likely that Tarot had an astrological origin, and for sure the first seven cards do not correspond to the seven planets.

Still, if Tarot had such an origin, I would think the seven planets would be represented by 3 cards each:
1. A representation of the Planet (e.g. the Sun, the Hermit/Saturn)
2. A Child of the Planet (e.g. The Pope for the Sun, the Hanged Man for Saturn)
3. An abstract principle connected to the Planet (e.g. Faith la Papesse for the Sun,Death for Saturn)

It would be interesting to see how far one can go on this path. I am quite sure one would not reach an elegant and complete astrological explanation of the whole sequence of the Trumps, but I think some insight could be gained.

What we surely historically had is a deep dialogue between astrology and Tarot. For instance, I love that mysterious Mercury on many World Cards from Bologna

Marco

DoctorArcanus said:

Ross, I agree with you.
I think it is not much likely that Tarot had an astrological origin, and for sure the first seven cards do not correspond to the seven planets.

Still, if Tarot had such an origin, I would think the seven planets would be represented by 3 cards each:
1. A representation of the Planet (e.g. the Sun, the Hermit/Saturn)
2. A Child of the Planet (e.g. The Pope for the Sun, the Hanged Man for Saturn)
3. An abstract principle connected to the Planet (e.g. Faith la Papesse for the Sun,Death for Saturn)

It would be interesting to see how far one can go on this path.

Click to expand...

I'm not sure how far, without getting too far-fetched (at least for historical purposes). There have to be more than planetary associations... the sphere of the fixed stars, God... these were staples of the cosmogony too. So many of the cards can be related to planets, beyond their obvious associations, i.e. Mercury (fluid, like a Magician), or the Moon (changeable, illusions - Magician), or the Moon as the Wheel of Fortune (as the saying around Wheels of Fortune often said she "changes like the Moon"), or just Moon=Moon. Then there's the Moon as the wife of the Sun, so Popess with Pope as Sun. Mars could be Emperor, or Chariot, or even the Tower. Mercury could be the thief, the Impiccato. Jupiter could be Emperor, Pope... Saturn the Hermit or Death, or even the Pendu as the children of the planets images show hanged people as his children. I think it might a good exercise - a game! - to find out how each card has a part of each planet in it.

I am quite sure one would not reach an elegant and complete astrological explanation of the whole sequence of the Trumps, but I think some insight could be gained.

What we surely historically had is a deep dialogue between astrology and Tarot. For instance, I love that mysterious Mercury on many World Cards from Bologna

Marco

Click to expand...

Yes... I've seen him on printer's marks, but I'm not sure what he stands for yet. Maybe the "fleeting" world is the basic meaning.

Ross

le pendu said:

What strikes me as very intriguing is that the Bateleur, who is clearly shown as such with his baton, cups, dice.. also seems to be shown as a Dentist!

Click to expand...

I looked at the image thinking that he was administering something to the person seated, and then noticed the person with the cloth around his jaw. The others in line, look as if there is something else they are there for - I think pain (looking at the other faces from the other illustrations) depict pain clearly - the line of people seem more social.

So possibly the 'Bateleur' is more than just then a dentist/magician/herbalist/magician/conjerer..

le pendu said:

Is the Bateleur using some kind of device to extract a tooth?

Click to expand...

Would it be a device for taking someones temperature? (Mercury) or a measuring device of some sort? the 'patient' looks too keen - if his tooth was about to be extracted ... maybe he is administering anethsetic/pain relief/narcotics?

le pendu said:

And what of that huge banner behind him showing the "tumbler/gymnast/acrobat" in many different positions? Is that to be associated with him as well?

Click to expand...

My first impression regarding the banner was to read it, but that relates to older caligraphy, where letters in the shape of humans using limbs and contortions - spelt a word - often what they were relaying or doing. Flowers were used to do the same thing when talking horticulture.

le pendu said:

Another really interesting feature is the hat on the table. When I first looked at the image I thought it was the hat of the "patient". Then I noticed that the hat of the patient was at his feet. The hat makes me think of other discussions we've had on this forum about the object on the right side of the card.. sometimes called Hat, or Cake, or Book, or Bag, or perhaps even other items.

Click to expand...

I wonder who's hat it is as the Bateleur alread wears a hat. And all the men seem to wear hats with feathers - so as I understand it - a common male's hat.

Just some thoughts
Elven x

le pendu said:

Here are some of the images from the Housebook showing the "Children of the Planets"

Moon
Venus
Mars
Jupiter
Saturn

I can't find the Children of the Sun, so if anyone has a link to add, or to any other images from the Housebook that might be of interest, please add them.

Click to expand...

The Sun and Mercury, together with the others, can be found on p.69/70 of A pictorial history of magic and the supernatural by Maurice Bessy, but the reproductions are rather small and the detail isn't that great.

Kwaw

Elven said:

I wonder who's hat it is as the Bateleur alread wears a hat. And all the men seem to wear hats with feathers - so as I understand it - a common male's hat.

Just some thoughts
Elven x

Click to expand...

Is it possible it is his "doctor's hat" that he is wearing while administering to his clients, and the hat on the table is the one he wears once he is all packed up and no longer acting as doctor/healer. (like a hat he'd wear about town)

Ross G Caldwell said:

My thought as to the relation of the Hausbuch image and the Bagatto is that the designer decided to place a magician (conjurer, deceiver, mountebank, huckster, hustler, entertainer, con-man, etc.) at the beginning of the series - his natural companion is a Fool - but a fool moves around, so he has no fixed place, whereas the magician is behind a table - and that the most common image to be found of this person was in the "Children of the Planets" type books. So - tarot artists modeled their magician on it.

Click to expand...

I'm not sure if you were implying the connection with this part of the image or not Ross (I suspect you were), but I when I looked at it I thought that the figure in the bottom right was probably The Fool.



Two clues are the dog, and the exposed feet. I think there are also Tarot images of the Fool with a musical instrument, horns and/or drums I think.. right?

Does the monkey on his back mean anything? Does this indicate an entertainer? Is this the figure that the sign of the tumbler is advertising for?

I would have thought at first that he was emerging from the building that the sign is attached to. But on closer inspection, I note that he couldn't have come from the doorway because the figure behind him holds chains, blocking the enterance.

And what of that character? Is she "in" chains? or holding them?

And what is the little character holding up to her? A small ball? A coin? Is he another Bateleur (a child in training maybe)? What is hangnig from his belt?

And finally, what is the character doing peeking around the corner of the building? Is he just there for "atmosphere"? Or is there another part of the visual storytelling happening?

le pendu said:

And what of that character? Is she "in" chains? or holding them?

And what is the little character holding up to her? A small ball? A coin? Is he another Bateleur (a child in training maybe)? What is hangnig from his belt?

And finally, what is the character doing peeking around the corner of the building? Is he just there for "atmosphere"? Or is there another part of the visual storytelling happening?

Click to expand...

Looks to me like the woman is releasing the chain barrier to let the child in [who is holding up a coin payment, the woman has her palm open to receive it] to see the entertainer [acrobat, sword dancer/swallower advertised on outside of kiosk]; the guy on the corner is trying to sneek a peek inside without paying. The man playing the trumpet is the barker, pulling in the crowds to see the show inside, or blowing the trumpet to announce the show is about to start [perhaps that is why the woman is releasing the chain - doesn't look to me like she is attached to it but holding it, the ring at the end has been loosened from its hook].

Kwaw

AH!

GREAT points Kwaw!

I was wondering if she had "released" the Fool. The chains do seem to have cuffs on them, who would be cuffed in this scenerio?

So the acrobat show is *inside* of the building... that makes so much sense and shows what that character is doing.. peeking!

Ah!! I thought the chain was for the dog

Re Mercury on the World Cards from Bologna - and on printer's marks ...

do you have any scans you could show me? Trying to find them on the Tarot museum

Found this tarot
A.Viassone" (Torino, Italy)
deck "Tarocco Piemontese"

which shows the figure in the World, a female, with a little upturned moon on her head... making the mercury symbol.... I guess that's what you mean?

I know the World usually means completion, but there's that sense of the World card as showing someone between two worlds - the dancer in the Yoni, like someone who has finished one life and is awaiting their new life.

I've read that Hermes also served as a guide to the dead through the underworld to the afterlife - a task that Mercury also shares in Roman tradition - the only one other than Hades and Persephone who could come and go as they please - and I think that association here is very strong.

Interesting that he was the god of theives, and there's that passage about Jesus returning like a theif in the Night...

Also if you think about the associations of Hermes... the phallic Herm... and the Yoni.... > new life .... !

I wonder if the four saints on the world card are an christianization of Mercury's attendants of cockeral, ram or goat, and tortiose.

Euri