The Lust Card & 156

smw

Flames said:
Hi smw,

I see the similarities. I think Crowley wanted to change the way we viewed the image and mystery of the 'whore'. He wanted to elevate her to a 'higher' status. He'd seen how repressive and constrictive Religion could be, so I guess the thinking must have been - enough with the 'virgin' mystery being the ideal, it takes power away and keeps people enslaved... .

Hi Flames

I might wonder though if opposing strongly a way of thinking as a basis for a new religion/philosophy could show that you haven't actually escaped the former. Perhaps you could end up with the other side of the same coin. I hope I am not being too controversial here, that isn't intended as a negative criticism of Crowley, just a thought on the flavouring of personal history on what we believe, feel is communicated to us and respond to.

I haven't read much about Crowley himself, I'll have to get a good book or two.

I don't have a strong religious background myself, so I am not really familiar with that kind of passion or suffering that some people like Crowley had with religious oppression. Though there was an article mentioned on here (that I can't find now) that said how Crowley was sent to Coventry, I think for a whole year at school for a misdemeanour. It sounded horrendous, totally unloving and cruel.

(Although having said that on the occasion we went to church and I was very small, apparently I refused to go in saying it made me feel sick. :laugh:

)

ravenest

smw said:
Hi Flames
I might wonder though if opposing strongly a way of thinking as a basis for a new religion/philosophy could show that you haven't actually escaped the former. Perhaps you could end up with the other side of the same coin. I hope I am not being too controversial here, that isn't intended as a negative criticism of Crowley, just a thought on the flavouring of personal history on what we believe, feel is communicated to us and respond to.

Actually, I agree with you here. A lot of his stuff is anti-Christian reactionary. But I feel it needed to be done. Sometimes the old idols need to be smashed to remove them further from the unconscious ( or to remove the lingering reverence, association guilt, etc. ) .

But to overly focus on that doesnt take one anywhere far. He also said we need to understand the past paradigm to transcend it - fair enough. But one must avoid fixation.

smw said:
I haven't read much about Crowley himself, I'll have to get a good book or two. I don't have a strong religious background myself, so I am not really familiar with that kind of passion or suffering that some people like Crowley had with religious oppression. Though there was an article mentioned on here (that I can't find now) that said how Crowley was sent to Coventry, I think for a whole year at school for a misdemeanour. It sounded horrendous, totally unloving and cruel.

Sometimes it is hard for the modern person to comprehend post Victorian society, on the one hand really messed up psychologically, yet , behind closed doors all sorts of ..... 'stuff' ... was going on.

Can you imagine having parents like these ;

" Crowley's father was particularly devout, spending his time as a travelling preacher for the sect and reading a chapter from the Bible to his wife and son after breakfast every day." As well, he was preaching against drinking, but the family lived off shares in a brewery . His religion was https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exclusive_Brethren

smw said:
(Although having said that on the occasion we went to church and I was very small, apparently I refused to go in saying it made me feel sick. )

The innocence of children

The last time I went in one, old cathedral style, I took the twins in, they were very young, they didnt have a clue what the hell place was. The walked around a bit and looked ( I diverted their attention away from the central object of worship - the ' torture sculpture ') ..... it was dark somber , quiet, others were being quiet .... then one of the boys .... " I think we better leave , I think someone is asleep in here . "

One could give children's innocence a deeper meaning at time .

ravenest

One thing I would like to point out, that woman 'being a whore' has a specific meaning - magically.

Like 'virgin' means 'specially dedicated' - magically,

'whore' means magically , open to all experience.

I had a young female friend that was 'pretty out there ' , yet on reflection, she did nothing half as bad as I did at that age ... thing was, I was male and cheered for it, she was female and judged for it and frowned upon .

What happened to equality?

- regarding other issues, we should probably stick to PMs .

Flames

Thanks for this bit. It explains a lot and helps to deepen my understanding of this card as well as be able to see the concepts of 'virgin' and 'whore', differently. You explain it so well.

I looked up the etymology of 'whore' on google and one of the meanings that wasn't just a term of abuse which struck me was - whore as, "one who desires." Magically, she's spiritually open so in that sense, any of us who genuinely seek experience could be considered 'whores', no?

The mystery of the 'whore' isn't viewed in the same light as the mystery of the 'virgin'. So I particularly like how Crowley elevated the whore to her rightful status.

When Crowley was a child, he would have been forced to read the Bible - or as you point out, he was read the Bible by his father - and in his transvaluation of religion, it's no surprise that he would have been attracted to Revelations 17. I just finished reading it - the King James version - and you could say the poetry sounds like Crowley! So John writes down this vision of the 'whore' and sees her as an abomination. Then Crowley comes along and makes the low, high and the high, low and then the 'good', 'bad' and the 'bad', 'good'.

I know what you mean by equality but even in these modern times, I don't fully see it, unfortunately ; despite all the figures that make black and white bleed grey.

Thank you!

Zephyros

I like very much Crowley concepts of "whore" and "virgin." In his symbolic language a virgin is a selfish figure, one who denies herself and others of experiences. On the other hand, a whore is someone who enjoys and experiences everything that can be. In a sense we're all whores, assimilating all experiences good and bad, "all experience is pure joy."

smw

ravenest said:
Actually, I agree with you here. A lot of his stuff is anti-Christian reactionary. But I feel it needed to be done. Sometimes the old idols need to be smashed to remove them further from the unconscious ( or to remove the lingering reverence, association guilt [\QUOTE]

Sounds like in punk though I'm not sure there was anything to replace the old smashed with... A bit before my time, I was a gloomy goth...

ravenest said:

Sometimes it is hard for the modern person to comprehend post Victorian society, on the one hand really messed up psychologically, yet , behind closed doors all sorts of ..... 'stuff' ... was going on.

Can you imagine having parents like these ;

" Crowley's father was particularly devout, spending his time as a travelling preacher for the sect and reading a chapter from the Bible to his wife and son after breakfast every day." As well, he was preaching against drinking, but the family lived off shares in a brewery.[\QUOTE]

Just awful

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The Lust Card & 156

smw

ravenest

ravenest

Flames

Zephyros

smw