Thoth card quality question

Freddie

Hi All,

I looked at some in the store today, both were large editions Agmuller and a green Us Games box. Looked the same, even had the same copyright on back (these were still wrapped of course). Going by the front card The Magus.. The Us Games version looked paler and more pastel coloured, but that is only looking at one card through cello wrapping in not the best lighting.

The 'Knight of Cups' is the card I'd like to have seen or 'the Lovers'(Lots of deep Christain Kabbalah symbolism in this one I never noticed..too pigblind to see I guess..maybe it is whatever the reader/sitter wants it to be...Wicca.. Christain.. Kabbalah... Jewish... etc). Le Fanu you must have read my mind about the Kn. of Cups. I found a link to the 1986 AGM edition...wow very lovely. I'm a Cancer male so that is my card lol...

Freddie

missy

Le Fanu said:
I really think that in theory these decks - whether US Games green Box or AG Muller Blue Box - come from the very same factory. Both decks are shrink-wrapped by AG Muller and have the same AG Muller gold sticker seal. However, I have noticed that my US Games one is on slightly thicker cardstock and with noticably richer colours than any of the AG Muller ones I have (and I have a few).

But I think this is a question of print runs. I have two Vievilles and there is a slight colour discrepancy. Same with the three Liber Ts I have. This is why you should never buy back ups. You never find one with the exact same colour as the one you know & love!

I received my Blue Box Thoth today.

First impressions:

I was a bit disappointed with the thinness of the card stock. It might be okay for smaller cards, but for cards that large, it seems a slightly thicker card stock might be nice? (But I haven't yet tried to shuffle them. They might be lovely; I shall wait and see.) I am wondering, Le Fanu, if I got a US Games version if it might be a tad thicker, or whether they may be exactly the same, as people have alluded to it may depend on print runs. Or if, as others have noted, it might be exactly the same exact card stock currently being printed for both Blue Box and Green Box editions.

Second, I am surprised at how slippery they are! I somehow expected more of a varnished look to these, as that is how some of my other AG Muller decks are.

*If* I could have had the deck printed how I envisioned it in my mind, it would have had thicker card stock that wouldn't have been nearly as slippery!

~~~~~

Other notes:

I found the LWB that comes along with the cards to be a nice addition. It isn't an overwhelmingly large amount of info on the Thoth to a newcomer like me. It gives me some brief excerpts from the Book of Thoth but not too much, so it should be easy to digest and then start to build on that knowledge.

As for the images themselves, I find the border a bit distracting. I wish the images were LARGER and BORDERLESS would be lovely,

but I mean as in filling up the entire area, not in trimming.

For my eyesight, a larger image would be nicer. That is why I got the large Thoth! Yet, when all is said and done, if one removes the giant border when one looks at the cards, the images aren't as big as I imagined them to be.

sapienza

I have the larger Thoth and medium size, both US Games, but they had AGM stickers on the plastic wrap around the deck. Anyway, I think the card stock is the same for both but the larger one definitely seems a lot thinner. I think it's more about the size of the cards though. I trimmed mine and the card stock seems a lot thicker and sturdier post trimming. I think when I first got my large one I felt it was quite slippery as well, but it's not slippery in the same way the US Games printed in Italy decks are, I didn't find it plasticy at all. The card stock certainly wears well with use and soon gets that nice comfortable feeling I love.

Le Fanu

sapienza said:
Anyway, I think the card stock is the same for both but the larger one definitely seems a lot thinner. I think it's more about the size of the cards though

I have the Green Box U.S Games and the Deluxe AG Muller Thoth (among others

). Both are the same size and I have got them out, side by side and the AG Muller does feel slightly thinner, slightly flimsier but I really do think this is a print run thing. I may have got a 2003 Green Box and a 2005 AG Muller (just guessing). Two years can do a lot in terms of card availability.

However, I bought another AG Muller Deluxe size Thoth, trimmed it and it is now the one I use the most. For immediate familiarising of the Thoth, it is better to stay with the borders and the astrological symbols therein. Once you know which cards are which, trim those borders and lose yourself in Lady Frieda's hallucinations...

missy

Thanks, sapienza and Le Fanu for your thoughts!

One other thing; sorry if this has been talked about elsewhere, but what was the card stock on the older Thoths like? Is this why they fetch such high prices on eBay?

At some point, did anyone print a Thoth on nice thick card stock that was more varnished and less slippery laminated?

Le Fanu

missy said:
At some point, did anyone print a Thoth on nice thick card stock that was more varnished and less slippery laminated?

The First Sam Weiser Thoth A is printed on wonderfully stiff, non-slippery cardstock. Really lovely cardstock. However, the quality of the image is nowhere near as good as these later editions. None of the richness, none of the subtlety. Really, in terms of details and colours, these recent ones cannot be beaten. I love my Thoth Weiser A, but I love its vintage feel, the sense of holding the first really commercially edited version of the Thoth. When I read, however, I go to the recent Thoth. My trimmed one

.

The Urania-Verlag German only Thoth (2007?) is interesting. Some find it pallid but I rather like the colours on it...

missy

Le Fanu said:
The First Sam Weiser Thoth A is printed on wonderfully stiff, non-slippery cardstock. Really lovely cardstock. However, the quality of the image is nowhere near as good as these later editions. None of the richness, none of the subtlety. Really, in terms of details and colours, these recent ones cannot be beaten. I love my Thoth Weiser A, but I love its vintage feel, the sense of holding the first really commercially edited version of the Thoth. When I read, however, I go to the recent Thoth. My trimmed one .

Oooo! But because you mentioned the Sam Weiser Thoth A I just had to go and dig up this link to Tarot Garden's Thoth Comparison Table.

And there I also found links to the Thoth A's card images. Do your images look like that? Because those look absolutely lovely to me; rich and amazing! But maybe it's only the scans; maybe the actual cards don't look like this.

Something else I love about that Thoth A is the lack of that pesky border. Really, what were they thinking with that busy border? It seems to have stuck around for some reason.

Le Fanu said:
The Urania-Verlag German only Thoth (2007?) is interesting. Some find it pallid but I rather like the colours on it...

I like my titles to be in English; nonetheless your input prompted an inquiry on my part. But I couldn't find a link to card images on Tarot Garden, unless I missed it.

I'd say these images on Tarot Garden of the current Thoth Blue Box seem accurate. On the Tarot Garden website, the Thoth A appears to be much richer than that if I am comparing the Tarot Garden scans. Yet from what you say, it would seem the Thoth A is not as rich as these scans, if I understand your meaning.

Le Fanu

missy said:
Do your images look like that? Because those look absolutely lovely to me; rich and amazing! But maybe it's only the scans; maybe the actual cards don't look like this.

Something else I love about that Thoth A is the lack of that pesky border. Really, what were they thinking with that busy border? It seems to have stuck around for some reason

Yes, I suppose they do look like that. The colours look right but close up the images are just not as sharp as the editions we see today.

The borders on the recent versions are actually similar to the ones which are used for the original plates in the original Crowley book, except the names of the cards are written by hand (I think they are the versions seen on the cover of Snuffin's book). I actually don't mind these borders, but certainly trimmed it frees the images a bit.

The Urania-Verlag edition is this one. Only available on amazon.de and also available in pocket size. this edition has a difference in colouring which some don't like, but others do. Do a search for Urania in the Thoth forum and there's a thread on it with scans...

Freddie

I recieved my Blue Box large thoth last week. I'm quite happy with the colouring. I also thought they might be made from too thin of cardstock when I first pulled them out. I'm okay with them now after I realize how easy they are for me to shuffle. I can riffle this deck just as well as my Hanson-Roberts and the these thinner cards mix better. Thanks for the cardstock info Le Fanu!!!! I think it is Gregory who has said that the BIG Thoth is worth learning how to shuffle. Thank you Gregory!!!! She enabled me to make right choice as I wanted the big cards, but at the same time I fretted over client shuffling. Done and dusted now. This version has only one Magus, but contains a beautiful rainbow coloured on black background Unicursal Hexagram card I use in the my deck.

I also disliked the small white boarder on the back, but of course I know 99% of my clients won't be able to shuffle this (not that they mix up the cards as well as I ask them to anyway lol.. harping and begging does no good folks... so now they can mix a little and cut...draw... lol...) so I found that the lamination allows them to fan spead very well and the borders allow the client to see the white division between each card and divine which cards they want to draw.

I like this deck so much that I'm now studying the Golden Dawn method of Tarot Elements (Book T etc..). This deck is very 'for real deep symbolism' and I can see me getting rid of a few others now and using just this, Hanson-Roberts and Albano.

Thanks all for the help

Freddie

PS: Of course I still want that Llewellyn deck.