Magick, Fate and Free Will

Always Wondering

As I couldn't figure out how to ask my questions in the Decan thread(without taking it off topic) I stole Scion's post to put here to start things off. I know Scion's a busy man, so if anyone feels like chiming in I would like that also.

Scion said:
No, Wolfy.

I hate to say it, but you're actually doing exactly what I describe in that quote: you're imagining that somehow the universe is a machine that we can "tilt" to get what we want. If we can cheat the system, it isn't a system, is it?

Magick is not about "bending" Fate. Fate is that which does not bend. Ananke! Necessity. That which must happen. Magick is about allowing Fate to work through you so that you are its conduit rather than an obstacle. As Crowley says, the True Will brooks no opposition because NO OPPOSITION is possible. If you believe Crowley, the New Aeon was and is inevitable, an expression of Ananke, and Fate is the True Will. Crowley didn't CREATE the Aeon, he announced it. Magick cannot exist in a world of Free Will because there is no POWER outside of the individual self. Again, this is a huge problem for modern Magickians; we have been raised to distrust the idea of Fate, and so we distrust the idea of external power... but EVERY system of magick on Earth is predicated on the existence of external powers, and there fore upon a worldview centered on Fate aka the Wheel of Fortune. Not surprisingly, I'd make a case that TAROT is founded on a belief in Fate, both as an allegorical gaming deck and a divinatory system. Again, it's hard to argue the opposite.

Think it through: if Magick and Free Will could coexist, what would be the source of Magick? What would literally make things happen? And before you say that "the magick is inside you," I'd say, "then it's inside everyone and therefore you can only do what everyone else is willing to LET you do." Which doesn't sound very magickal (or very free) at all, does it? How can divination occur without the Divine? How can you tell a Fortune, if there is no Fortune? Astrology is rooted in a fate-based worldview. No two ways about it. Every attempt to make it otherwise has pretty much made it NOT astrology, but rather a kind of saccharine moodring. Magick always starts with spirits. Spirits have consciousness. Consciousness is another word for Will. If we have Free Will, whose Will wins? Not any humans, certainly. Making you, if you believe in magick, a pawn in a game played by daemons.

Free Will isn't "new" any more than Fate is "old." The myth of unlimited opportunity and easy access is exactly that. And the small freedoms we feel we've gained have been matched with byzantine restrictions, controls, and invasions. For the record, the numbers on social mobility are bad. This is something that lots of Westereners don't like to look at, but the odds of escaoping from one sociasl class into another are astronomical. You are more likely to spontaneously combust thatn to make it out of the foster care system into something like a successful healthy home life. You are more likely to be hit by lightning that to climb out of dire poverty into wealth and privelege. It isn't just a matter of work, but of all the circumstances arrayed against your choices. The difference is the difference between Actions (which are an expression of Will) and activity (which arise in the absence of Will). Action and activity are not synonyms but modern society invariably mistakes one for the other, witness most modern entertainment, education, religion, politics, art, and science.

Or to put it another way, which is how I did it when I taught theology classes, I'm going to challenge that so-called Free Will you're talking about... You ready?:

Okay. Fall in love with someone right now. Go ahead. While you're sitting there. Pick someone and love them fully and passionately to the excception of all others. Enough that you'd die for them. I'm waiting. No? Then how about you make yourself a supermodel with a virtuosic singing voice. Go ahead. No? Or why don't you unsay something you said to someone a year ago? Have an earthshattering idea on the spot? Force someone to change their mind? For that matter, change your race, sex, age, abilities, the color of your eyes...? Nope. We do have a few more choices and some ACTIVITIES available to us that our ancestors did not because of access and technology, but we do NOT have ACTIONS available to us that they did not. Whether you believe in Fate or Free Will is a personal matter, but usually wehen people speak glibly about Free Will as if it's a big blank check to personal power then they haven't thought about it with any degree of gravity. Free Will isn't a panacea, anymore than belief in Fate is a prison. Even the idea of "getting used" to Free Will is so funny to me. Free will is aboutt the individual getting used, by all of creation.

Free will isn't "freedom" at all... That's what I was writing about in the above quote, if you reread it. Free will is a terrible terrible responsibility, a soul-crushing burden. It isn't a release! It's the willingness to be the cause of everything... in the world... forever! Free Will doesn't mean you can "do whatever you want" but rather that you have no framework, no guidance, no assistance, no support, no morality, no hope, no prayer, no spirit, mo power outside of your own. On the one hand, it gives you a certain amount of autonomy, much in the same way that a Nuclear explosion clears out a certain amount of real estate. Believing in Free Will means that EVERYTHING... the grass growing outside, the baby crying two streets over, the wind blowing past the Eiffel tower, is connected directly to you and the choices you make. Are you willing to be responsible for people's cancers, assaults, wars? Are you willing to be completely and utterly at fault for every mistake, flaw, or habit that gets in the way of your wishes? That's a tall order.

I'm not saying we SEE the world the way the ancients did, but rather that when people say that we DON'T see that world because we believe in Free Will, that they are using the phrase immoderately. Free Will is no small thing, and I wouldn't wish it on anyone.

So no. I'm plenty used to Free Will. I've thought about it a LOT. And Fate. I have a sense of how they operate as worldviews, and neither (like waves/particles in light) is a complete model... but in NO model is Free Will a free ride.

but EVERY system of magick on Earth is predicated on the existence of external powers, and there fore upon a worldview centered on Fate aka the Wheel of Fortune.
I wanted to reject this right out but the Wheel of Fortune made too much sense. I have been studying Thelema and now am trying to see what external powers Thelema are predicated on. I guess one could consider Crowley an external power or even the BOL. Am I on the right track here?


Think it through: if Magick and Free Will could coexist, what would be the source of Magick? What would literally make things happen? And before you say that "the magick is inside you," I'd say, "then it's inside everyone and therefore you can only do what everyone else is willing to LET you do."
I have been wondering about this myself. It's funny. I easily agree the magick isn't in me, but turn it onto the population and I could think magick is latent in everyone. I suppose I have fallen into the mindset that therefore I can only do what everyone else is willing to let me do. Though when I say it out loud it sounds so contradictary.


The difference is the difference between Actions (which are an expression of Will) and activity (which arise in the absence of Will). Action and activity are not synonyms but modern society invariably mistakes one for the other, witness most modern entertainment, education, religion, politics, art, and science.
This is about intent?

Free will is aboutt the individual getting used, by all of creation.
This is new to me. Would you like to expand on it? Please.

Free will isn't "freedom" at all... That's what I was writing about in the above quote, if you reread it. Free will is a terrible terrible responsibility, a soul-crushing burden. It isn't a release! It's the willingness to be the cause of everything... in the world... forever! Free Will doesn't mean you can "do whatever you want" but rather that you have no framework, no guidance, no assistance, no support, no morality, no hope, no prayer, no spirit, mo power outside of your own.
I'm with you on this. It's kind of been freaking me out lately.

And that was before I read this. . .

On the one hand, it gives you a certain amount of autonomy, much in the same way that a Nuclear explosion clears out a certain amount of real estate. Believing in Free Will means that EVERYTHING... the grass growing outside, the baby crying two streets over, the wind blowing past the Eiffel tower, is connected directly to you and the choices you make. Are you willing to be responsible for people's cancers, assaults, wars? Are you willing to be completely and utterly at fault for every mistake, flaw, or habit that gets in the way of your wishes? That's a tall order.
Yikes? How/When does this happen?

Spirits have consciousness. Consciousness is another word for Will. If we have Free Will, whose Will wins? Not any humans, certainly. Making you, if you believe in magick, a pawn in a game played by daemons.
Now this is where you left off in the BOL study. Left me thinking. When you talk of daemons and spirits it's like there are everywhere. Not just superconscious or subconscious. And now this idea of their own consciousness. Forgive me if I am making a mess of this, I can't ever grasp a coherent question. But I do sometimes feel like a pawn in someone elses game. Could you talk more about this?


I'm not saying we SEE the world the way the ancients did, but rather that when people say that we DON'T see that world because we believe in Free Will, that they are using the phrase immoderately. Free Will is no small thing, and I wouldn't wish it on anyone.
This is still sinking in. Any question yet would sound completely idiotic. But I will give it a shot. If we are going to expand in any way, do we really have a choice? I mean, isn't free will kind of like a level of maturity?

That's all.
For now.

AW
 

Curtis Penfold

I personally feel that we have free will, but limited choices.

My religion teaches that God knows everything that was and is and will be. Thus, He knows what we're going to do, even though we're still choosing to do whatever it is we're going to do.

I think everything that has happened, is happening, and will happen, ends up in a sort of matrix. God can see this matrix completely. What will happen will happen. That's not to say we won't CHOOSE what will happen. It's just to say, we won't choose anything different than we're going to choose. Does that make sense?

We can all see a part of this matrix. My family is friends with a remote viewer. Those are like psychics that work for the CIA. They visualize scenes in any place in any time. I think people like that can see a little more of the matrix than we can.

Does that make sense?
 

Grigori

Always Wondering said:
I suppose I have fallen into the mindset that therefore I can only do what everyone else is willing to let me do. Though when I say it out loud it sounds so contradictary.

Recently I've discovered the joy of podcasts, and today listened to one with James Wasserman, comparing the idea of Thelemic "Liberty" to the "Freedom" envisaged by America's founders. What struck me, was his comparison of the civil war, to the concept of Horus as a god of war. The reason for this is obvious in retrospect, but not something I'd consciously appreciated before. "Freedom" is something that must be fought for and won, Freedom is hard, and ugly and you might just die from it. Its opposite is "Security" which has a cost of compliance and sacrifice of individual liberties.

Without getting too political, I can see this as a response to this statement from you AW. Magick may not be the ability to convince anyone else to let you do something, but rather its the skill of convincing yourself just how much you can actually get away with, and being willing to fight (even if you only have to fight yourself) to do it. That doesn't mean you can bypass fate, but it does mean you don't get a free pass to sit back on your arse and let fate happen to you.
 

Always Wondering

similia said:
(even if you only have to fight yourself) to do it.

:laugh:
Yes, this is usual in my case.

I listened to the or a similar podcast.
You have given me a lot to think about. Especialy in regards to my love hate relationship with security.
I suspect I was viewing my magick as working inside the box rather than outside the box. (A sort of over simplification here, I've got some poking to do at this.) I suppose that is why Scion's post was so intriguing.

Thank's Similia.

AW
 

Always Wondering

I wanted to reject this right out but the Wheel of Fortune made too much sense. I have been studying Thelema and now am trying to see what external powers Thelema are predicated on. I guess one could consider Crowley an external power or even the BOL. Am I on the right track here?

I thought this through. I guess Thelema isn't magick.

Hmm.
Still thinking.

AW
 

thorhammer

CP ~ your post made sense to me. I don't know that I agree with it - this whole line of thought is more than I want to swallow right now - but I think you make an eminently sensible case in your post.

Thanks for the thread, AW. I hadn't seen Scion's post before - I was avoiding the other thread.

\m/ Kat
 

Floss

Scion, how do you define the meaning of the word 'fate'?
 

Always Wondering

thorhammer said:
Thanks for the thread, AW. I hadn't seen Scion's post before - I was avoiding the other thread.

\m/ Kat

I hope you don't avoid this one. I would love your thoughts also \Kat/.

AW
 

Aeon418

thorhammer said:
CP ~ your post made sense to me.
It didn't make much sense to me. :laugh:

So, I'm probably on a one way trip to hell. But the big guy upstairs already knew this from the beginning of time. So what was the point exactly?

Perhaps I'll get to ask him before he casts me into the flames? Then he can get back to his foreskin fetish and his busy management of a worthless patch of real estate in the Middle East.
 

Always Wondering

Aeon418 said:
Perhaps I'll get to ask him before he casts me into the flames?

Before you cast off. . .})

I was hoping you'd join the conversation.

At least set me straight on Thelema and magick. Some sites insist Thelema and magick are two separate things. I suppose that goes with the law is for all. But as seen above I have trouble separating them. And what would be a ceremonial magician's predication of external powers? Are we talking HGA?

And I thought, (or hoped) you might have something to say about an individual getting used by all of creation. Or a least you've talked about a more of a offering or readiness for some universal consciousness. I am wondering if it is just a difference between a more traditional view and a chaotic view.

Then I am sensing a difference between free will and true will, just from what I've read.
Still either one can be scary. It got a little spooky for me this fall being sicker than a dog and realizing I had no one to rant at or beg of but myself. :| Old habit that, waiting for a miracle.

AW