Magick, Fate and Free Will

Aeon418 said:

It didn't make much sense to me.

So, I'm probably on a one way trip to hell. But the big guy upstairs already knew this from the beginning of time. So what was the point exactly?

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I was presenting my worldview when it comes to free will.

You're asking why I think God would send us here knowing exactly what we're going to do? When I speak of the matrix, I think there's a difference between knowing everything and experiencing something.

God and remote viewers can see things ahead of them. God Himself might know every little detail about a situation to come, but it's way different than when that situation is being experienced. He might see everything as one moment, but He's experiencing it moment by moment.

It would've been morally wrong to forsake all the good caused by doing what He does just because He knows there'll be a little bad here and there.

I don't believe in hell, at least, not how others believe in hell. Obviously, to speak more about this would be going OT, because this is about the Golden Dawn worldview. I only introduced my worldview in hopes that maybe it could be applied to the topic at hand. It's a pretty complicated topic, and your knowledge of the Golden Dawn and Thelema would be much appreciated.

Hi AW. I'm a bit busy right now, so I'll have to nibble at your questions as time allows.

First nibble...

Always Wondering said:

At least set me straight on Thelema and magick. Some sites insist Thelema and magick are two separate things. I suppose that goes with the law is for all. But as seen above I have trouble separating them.

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Magick is the science and art of causing change to occur in conformity with Will. Most don't realise it, but we all cause changes in conformity with Will everyday. In this sense everyone is a magician.

Are Thelema and Magick separate? Absolutely not!!! See above.
Are Thelema and Ceremonial Magick separate? Possibly.

Everyone is working magick to cause change in conformity with their Will. (Whether they succeed is a different matter.) For example, when people are hungry they work the magick by eating a meal. When they are tired they cause the required change by sleeping. Wow! What great magick!
But is it everyone's Will to cause those particular changes that can be brought about via the use of ceremonial magick? No. From this it follows that a person can be a Thelemite causing change in conformity with Will, but that does not necessarily mean they are also a ceremonial magician.

Magick is the general principle of casuing change in accord with Will. (The law is for All.) Ceremonial magick is special sub-set of the general principle.

I bet you've already read these letters from Magick Without Tears. But all your answers are there.

What is Magick?
http://www.hermetic.com/crowley/mwt/mwt_01.html

The Necessity of Magick for All.
http://www.hermetic.com/crowley/mwt/mwt_02.html

By all means, nibble at your leasure.
I do appreciate your time and I have cast a wide net.

Magick Without Tears said:

9. A man who is doing his True Will has the inertia of the Universe to assist him.

(Illustration: The first principle of success in evolution is that the individual should be true to his own nature, and at the same time adapt himself to his environment.)

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This is very helpful.
I think I shall re-read the whole thing.

AW

Always Wondering said:

And what would be a ceremonial magician's predication of external powers?

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From the perspective of us below the Abyss, external powers exist. But from the perspective of THAT which animates us from above the Abyss there is no contradiction between the external and the internal. All is One.

Always Wondering said:

And I thought, (or hoped) you might have something to say about an individual getting used by all of creation.

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I think your resistance to this might have more to do with the wording than anything else. Remember how in other places we've mentioned that the body/mind/personality that we think of as "self" is really just a vehicle for gathering experience. In that sense you are being used. You are just a tool for THAT which wishes to experince life through the eyes of a woman known as AW. But you're not really AW, are you? Thou art THAT.

Thou who art I, beyond all I am,
Who hast no nature and no name,
Who art, when all but thou are gone,
Thou, centre and secret of the Sun,
Thou, hidden spring of all things known
And unknown, Thou aloof, alone,
Thou, the true fire within the reed
Brooding and breeding, source and seed
Of life, love, liberty, and light,
Thou beyond speech and beyond sight,
Thee I invoke, my faint fresh fire
Kindling as mine intents aspire.
Thee I invoke, abiding one,
Thee, centre and secret of the Sun,
And that most holy mystery
Of which the vehicle am I.

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Always Wondering said:

Then I am sensing a difference between free will and true will, just from what I've read.

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Free Will is not True Will. In a certain sense you really can exercise your free will and do anything you want. But the moment you act against your True self you automatically invoke that which will bring you back into line - Karma.

Basically you chose your fate/destiny before you incarnated. Now that you're here in the flesh your job is to consciously work with fate and thereby transmute it into True Will. Work against yourself and you might be in for a bumpy ride.

It is almost laughable to think that the Great Work consists merely in "letting her rip;" but Karma bumps you from one side of the toboggan slide to the other, until you come into the straight."

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Unfortunately "letting her rip" is the one thing that most of us find so difficult because we have ideas about how we "think" life should be. But fate doesn't give two figs about our silly ideas. If it has to it will drag you through life kicking and screaming. So why fight it, when you can paddle along with it?

Row, row, row, your boat....

Curtis Penfold said:

I don't believe in hell, at least, not how others believe in hell.

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But does your god believe in hell?

Aeon418 said:

But does your god believe in hell?

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No. Not in the way I think you're thinking of hell. If you want to know more about this subject, seriously, there's a website that talks about our worldview on this. Mormon.org. We believe in degrees of glory depending on how obedient you are to God in this life, recognizing that obedience to God can, to some extent, be practiced through obedience to your conscience.

Some people don't reach their potentials. Some people are satisfied stopping where they are. This is hell.

The next life is just a reflection of this one. It's important that we gain habits that bring us joy in this life (work with natural law and such), so that we can have eternal joy in the future.

(Man, I feel like I'm preaching. This really can relate with Fate, Natural Law, Free Will, the whole big bang, you know. It's interesting to note the commonality between our worldviews, even if there are some important differences).

Curtis Penfold said:

No. Not in the way I think you're thinking of hell.

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Oh that's a shame.

So in Luke 16 (from the lips of Jesus himself ) the rich man really wasn't being tormented after death in the fires of hades?

Abraham always got on my nerves in that piece. There's that poor bloke writhing around in agony, and all he wanted was one drop of water. But what did he get instead? A lecture! Personally I would have told him where he could shove it, and his harp!

I hope you know I'm only pulling your leg?

Aeon418 said:

Free Will is not True Will. In a certain sense you really can exercise your free will and do anything you want. But the moment you act against your True self you automatically invoke that which will bring you back into line - Karma.

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As Carl Jung might say ...
'Free Will' = EGO (personality)
'Fate' = Self (the Godhead)

Aeon418 said:

I hope you know I'm only pulling your leg?

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Alright. Well, if you really want to know more about my views on hell (which are pretty much the same as my church teaches), just send me a PM or check out the website mentioned.

I really find it difficult to relate the afterlife too much with free will. I mean, they're very related, but they're also very not.

Boy that AW woman sure has a thick head.

Thank-you Aeon418
I didn't even want to cut up your post.
I am going to sit with it whole, for a good long while.