dream about Yesod to Netzach

isthmus nekoi

I recently had a dream about some Sephira (or however it's spelt). Now, I've never really studied the Qabalah and most of what I know about it comes passively from reading Crowley's Book of Thoth. Now, I'd love to know if this dream actually makes sense to scholars of the Tree...

I'm in some random class and I'm wondering why Netzach=Venus and Hod=Mercury. Shouldn't Mars be across from Venus? I raise this question and a young man with really thick lens - he's all eyes - says, oh well the reason for that is b/c consciousness is still separating from the mother and so the masculine hasn't fully formed yet. OK, I think, it's a little bit like how all fetuses begin as females and that's why men have these weird funny nipples.

Then I woke up and looked at the planetary assignments and saw that Yesod was associated w/the moon, the mother.

Oh, and please excuse the ignorance but what is Saturn doing way up in Binah? Saturn is form and material... wouldn't he fit w/Malkuth?

jmd

The 'simple' reason for the allocation of the planetary order assigned on the Kircher Tree of Life is due to the Chaldean or Ptolemaic planetary order, which takes into account the relative apparent motion of the planets.

As such, the ones appearing to move the most relative the fixed stars are deemed closest the Earth (hence Malkut).

So from above Malkut, we have, in ascending order:

Moon, Mercury, Venus, Sun, Mars, Jupiter, Saturn.

In similar fashion, the Sefirot, in order of emanation, are Keter, Hockmah, Binah, Hesed, Geburah, Tifaret, Netzah, Hod, Yesod, and Malkut. So assigning the planet just above the Earth to the Sefirah 'just prior' to Malkut, the pattern reveals itself 'naturally':

Yesod - Moon
Hod - Mercury
Netzah - Venus
etc.

It may be worth reflecting on and considering the planetary attributions in a manner that also offers alternatives to those that one may be familiar with.

For example, Saturn can also be seen as a forming quality, constraining impulse into a seed-form with particular constraints on potential growth (eg, an oak-'seed' will not grow into a rose).

This aspect of Saturn to Binah can then also make sense.

Likewise, the relation of Venus to Netzah can be seen as an inner beauty and harmonious order related to reverberation or shimmering (one of the meanings of 'Netzah'), without which there would be decay.

Hod, as not only glory but also as the first Sefirah one reaches from which the Sun (Tiferet) is close by, gives additional clarity to the light of thought required in one's ongoing development (Mars would here be in this description considered somewhat inappropriate).

These are but quick reflections on the particular astrological correlations long made to these Sefirot. They are not, of course, to be taken as immutable. Rather, each and every Sefirah has, to my mind, as aspect of each of the planets.

So perhaps a useful further study is also to see in what manner Mars, for example, is reflected in not only Pahad/Geburah, but also in Tifaret, Netzah, as well as Hod and Yesod (and the others!). And likewise for the other planets!

isthmus nekoi

Thanks for the explanation! I just realized, I should've searched for the Saturn thing first - pls excuse me jmd, if you've had to explain this before! And I like your suggestion - I get the sense that one might benefit from overlaying the planets' meanings as opposed to forcing the planets to fit.

But as for the other topic of this thread - does the notion of consciousness arising from matter, or matter transmuting into spirit seem a sound perspective to view the Sephiroth?

venicebard

isthmus nekoi said:
I get the sense that one might benefit from overlaying the planets' meanings as opposed to forcing the planets to fit.

It is good to remember that the Tree as generally taught is only one of four basic 'configurations', namely the third, the one ruled by triplicity: it takes (at least) three points to determine a form, hence water, hence Cups (psychological forms). There is also a configuration where the ten are set in five pairs, outlined in the much-revered but oft puzzled-over Sefer Yetzirah: duality is of course Swords, which cleave the air.

Adherence of planetary spirits to Sefirot happens in the formation of the fourth Tree (out of the third), that of (planetary) rounds or Coins. This suit constitutes the material, temporal world so to speak. It does bear a relation, however, to the third Tree, in that 'cup' seen as cauldron can contain planets' (molten) metals. As a quick example of how they overlay, 7th and 8th in Cups are the third male-and-female types (in our psychological makeup), meaning those driven by lust, lowest of the three possible (sexual) motivations, Platonic (chaste), reproductive, and lustful: hence overlaying Venus-Aphrodite onto 7-Netzach and Mercury-Hermes onto 8-Hod represents that which each seeks, male seeking the beauty (as divine manifestation) in a woman, female the power (as divine messenger) in a man. (Don't get me started defending this view against the shallower 'feminist' viewpoint unless you want an ear-full.) One other quick example: Mars is the quality (in our psychological makeup) most clearly exemplified in the 5th (psychological) type, the reproductive female defending her young, who will readily sacrifice herself in the process (Mars being martial discipline).

Now mind you I do not vouch for rabbis knowing all this, but I do pretty much vouch for it.

But as for the other topic of this thread - does the notion of consciousness arising from matter, or matter transmuting into spirit seem a sound perspective to view the Sephiroth?

(I am attracted to Light, much like a domesticated animal.) This is just about 'spot-on'. To refine it just a little, you can look at the origin, the One (Keter), as Consciousness itself (ultimate reality), the ten being how an individual conscious self arises out of that ultimate reality. By this I don't mean idealism, since nature matter can be and is conscious as what it is (in whatever consciousness of it there happens to be). What the Sefirot actually signify are the ten stages (in being conscious) on the universal round (on which one's individual progress is measured) from what is exalted (straight up, aries-the-head) to what is us (straight back, capricorn the tenth sign). The fourth sign signifies 90-degrees out from straight up, hence straight out from us (fourth is called Chesed, 'Lovingkindness'), meaning nature (there being 4 elements therein), which makes the tenth sign opposite it straight back towards us: oneself, the point to which one has progressed on the round. And we had to progress through all the levels of nature before we could 'cross over' from the part of the round towards the outer horizon (what is before us) to what is towards the inner horizon (back towards us, the direction of responsibility).

Solme rabbis know of course that the Tree represents our emanation or 'evolution’ (as individuals) from God', and Lurianic Kabbalah relates the Sefirot to the round, but I do not get the impression Jewish (or any) circles are any longer aware specifically that the ten are the stages on that round that mark what we have 'mastered' to arrive here (at individual-hood). One is the Unity we emerged from to become individuals, ten is the individual ten-fingered we have become, in whom is the 'Presence' or Shekhinah of the One, we being emanations therefrom.

venicebard

isthmus nekoi said:
I'm in some random class and I'm wondering why Netzach=Venus and Hod=Mercury. Shouldn't Mars be across from Venus?

As planetary columns form in the alchemical vessel or round, from which columns the planetary rulership of signs evolved, the year or Vulcan (Hephaestus), Venus's (Aphrodite's) rightful husband, is the centerpost, Venus herself is the closest column on the nature or outer side of the vessel (towards spring and summer of the zodiacal round), and Mars (Ares) her counterpart just within (also next to the centerpost). But in order for Mars to act on Venus he has to go through the centerpost, which is the origin of the myth that Hephaestus caught the two in his 'net'.

Then I woke up and looked at the planetary assignments and saw that Yesod was associated w/the moon, the mother.

Yes, it is kinda odd to find what is oft described as the male genitalia also standing for the moon and motherhood, till you realize that in order for there to be the 9 months of human gestation the two must come into conjunction.

Oh, and please excuse the ignorance but what is Saturn doing way up in Binah? Saturn is form and material... wouldn't he fit w/Malkuth?

Binah and Malkuth have a special bond, in that they are assigned the first and second heh of the Name, respectively (in Lurianic Kabbalah). But lead is our 'hanging back' (lethargy) and thus relates to the one planetary Sefirah that is 'supernal', that is, which precedes manifestation (last sign of upper half), lead being the weight of karma yet to manifest so to speak. The manifested half of the round is the side towards us, and we're at the bottom of it, having fallen there from our selfhood in the 10th sign thus dragging signs 8-10 down with us to form the 'broken-and-extended zodiac', which after libra extends down the legs to the feet instead of up the spine to the head.

Sorry if the answers seem complicated, but you ask serious questions that deserve serious treatment.

venicebard

Oh, something I forgot to explain: the relation between 'columns' in the vessel and signs as emanations on the round is through reflection. In forming the Tree in Cups, the signs from 4 on extend into the signs following (via their months or arcs) to generate the cardinal, male, and female tetrads (called cardinal, fixed, and mutable in astrology). It turns out in this development that the sign precisely opposite that reached by a planet's Sefirah marks the beginning of that planet's column in the vessel or round (3-9 from within to without, from capricorn to cancer, with the first, though, beginning in sagittary), as if planetary columns were the fourth Tree's 'equal and opposite reaction' to the third. (If I could draw you a picture, you would see what I mean, so draw it out yourself and it will become apparent: the columns are those outlined by verticals in the round arranged with libra down and aries up, the vertical diameter being the central column, with the sun reflected in the lower half of silver's column, to rule leo.)

isthmus nekoi

It is good to remember that the Tree as generally taught is only one of four basic 'configurations'

Ah, that is interesting. Do the other 3 forms have the same basic structure (e.g. 10 points)?

One other quick example: Mars is the quality (in our psychological makeup) most clearly exemplified in the 5th (psychological) type, the reproductive female defending her young, who will readily sacrifice herself in the process (Mars being martial discipline).

The female seeking the psychopompus makes sense to me. But this 5th psychological type, what system are you referring to? Do you mean an enneagram type?

To refine it just a little, you can look at the origin, the One (Keter), as Consciousness itself (ultimate reality), the ten being how an individual conscious self arises out of that ultimate reality.

Well now, I like this comment b/c I was thinking quite the opposite - that Malkuth, being the material, is the base and the earth from which the tree grows. And that from the differentiation of the material, consciousness must climb in order to experience unity. I can certainly see how it could go the other way though (esp since this is how the Book of Thoth explains it).

What the Sefirot actually signify are the ten stages (in being conscious) on the universal round (on which one's individual progress is measured) from what is exalted (straight up, aries-the-head) to what is us (straight back, capricorn the tenth sign).
[snip]
Solme rabbis know of course that the Tree represents our emanation or 'evolution’ (as individuals) from God', and Lurianic Kabbalah relates the Sefirot to the round, but I do not get the impression Jewish (or any) circles are any longer aware specifically that the ten are the stages on that round that mark what we have 'mastered' to arrive here (at individual-hood). One is the Unity we emerged from to become individuals, ten is the individual ten-fingered we have become, in whom is the 'Presence' or Shekhinah of the One, we being emanations therefrom.

Now would you say that the stages can be completed backwards afterwards. Meaning that consciousness follows the path from Kether to Malkuth, develops via differentiation (as is often the model, esp w/linguinsts and Lacanian types) but that afterwards, there is a reverse path that develops towards unity and consciousness of it? OR does the descent to the material necessitate the possibility of grasping the notion of "All is One" (as it seems to me, there is no greater equalizing force than the material as everyone sh*ts and everyone dies). OR is this a rather silly question and I've missed the point?

isthmus nekoi

venicebard said:
Sorry if the answers seem complicated, but you ask serious questions that deserve serious treatment.

No need to apologize - I really appreciate the time it must have taken to type out your posts and respond to my newbie questions seriously.

venicebard

isthmus nekoi said:
Do the other 3 forms have the same basic structure (e.g. 10 points)?

Yes, 10, but not arranged in triads (though all four, of course, have a certain unity). They are the ten stages as represented on (in) each of Ezekiel's four wheels (worlds). The first is described in the book Bahir and is the original character of each sign as one of ten stages in arriving at selfhood. The second is described in Sefer Yetzirah and is five pairs of opposites: first-last, good-bad, up-down, east-west, south-north. The third is the common one (in triads). The fourth is ordered according to the interactions of planetary functions: some, active, act on others that are passive, all based on the fourfold structure of number and valence. Number, based on digital summing, consists of +1, +2, +3, +4, -4, -3, -2, -1, -0, plus a second +1 (10) to set in 'motion' the repetition of this pattern throughout number. Valence, deducible by reason, compresses +4/-4 into a single number, 6-carbon, then again in 14-silicon, in order to bring number and valence back in sync for 15-21 after the trauma of duality separating off from unity in our thinking, which produced matter in which the second pulls opposite the first to make 2-helium inert or -0 rather than +2, 3-lithium +1 rather than +3, and so on. Taking elements in nature's order, 1-fire, 2-air, 3-water, 4-earth, and dividing planets into an airy (> 1 & <or= 2squared) and a watery (> 2squared & <or= 3squared) layer to go with 1-stars-fire and 10-earth-earth yields: 2-sun air's receptivity to fire (being next to it), 3-Saturn air's effect on water, 4-Jupiter air's effect on earth, 5-Mars water's effect on earth (5 being -4), 6-year water's effect on itself (6 being -3), 7-Venus water's receptivity to itself (7 being -3 valence), 8-Mercury water's receptivity to air (8 being -2 valence), and 9-moon water's receptivity to fire (9 being -1 valence). Thus Saturn acts on Mercury, Saturn being (it turns out) that aspect of air or turbulence that is dissipative (centrifugal, radiative) and Mercury that aspect of water or form that constrains the disipative (the closed vessel necessitated by mercury's toxic vapors). The year (Vulcan) is Venus's rightful mate, though Mars acts in his stead in Greek myth and is caught in a 'net' misbehaving with her.

...this 5th psychological type, what system are you referring to? Do you mean an enneagram type?

No, the triadal Tree, in which 2-4-7 are on the male pillar, 3-5-8 on the female, and 1-6-9-10 on the middle or neutral one.

...I can certainly see how it could go the other way though (esp since this is how the Book of Thoth explains it).

Forgive me if I consider the BoT mostly charlatanry, though he of course followed more or less known forms of Kabbalah when he knew them. There is not absolute agreement nowadays, but early writings make clear (as the numbers themselves OUGHT to) that the Tree's roots are above, in Unity, it often even being described as 'upside down' I believe.

venicebard

isthmus nekoi said:
Now would you say that the stages can be completed backwards afterwards. Meaning that consciousness follows the path from Kether to Malkuth, develops via differentiation (as is often the model, esp w/linguinsts and Lacanian types) but that afterwards, there is a reverse path that develops towards unity and consciousness of it? OR does the descent to the material necessitate the possibility of grasping the notion of "All is One" (as it seems to me, there is no greater equalizing force than the material as everyone sh*ts and everyone dies). OR is this a rather silly question and I've missed the point?

No, not silly at all. Tough to answer, but not silly.

I think if I were a linguist, I would see the Tree as illustrating in a sense how all linguistic forms emanate from the One even as they appear to grow out of previous forms: since the previous forms also emanated from the One, and since what 'emanates' from the One is still contained IN it, you see the mechanism at work perhaps (subtle, but not complicated).

I know I don't want to (nor can I) climb back up the Tree in the sense of having to traverse the ten stages all over again: the damage is done, I'm AT 10 and consciously aware and cannot go back. The path ahead is the remaining three stages, 11th and 12th signs and the return to the first (which is perhaps why these three bore bardic numbers linking them to the three commonest atom-types in earth's crust, as the 'hillslope left to climb'), which together with the 10 Sefirot constitute the 13 middot or divine qualities.

However, as the 10 are our stages of mastery, so to speak, it may be beneficial to range through them mentally in order to understand one's own inner makeup. This, I think, is what the paths are about, and I am only beginning to tackle the paths, as I have only recently (and tentatively) begun to take the generally accepted letter-correlations thereto as authentic (not including trump-correlations, in which I take bardic tradition to be the correct system), since there are alternative (rabbinical) correlations based, for instance, on there being 3 horizontal, 7 vertical, and 12 diagonal paths and there being 3 'mothers', 7 'doubles', and 12 'simples' constituting letterdom. (One can find these iterated in Arieh Kaplan's commentary on Sefer Yetzirah.)

Hope this helps somewhat. (What's a 'Lacanian' type?)