Elemental Dignities... Neutral Cards?? Ill Dignified Cards??

frelkins said:

It takes courage to ignore cards in a spread, but lately I have been doing so when the elements "extinguish" each other. (But there are also those fire + water = explosive steam moments.)

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I only use the 'canceling out' principle when using the GD spread (which I don't often do). And, personally, when working with ED's in other spreads, I pay special attention to the contraries. (The steam metaphor can be very apt!) They may extinguish each other's outer effects, but psychologically they can be the most powerful hidden factors going on in the situation. In essence, for me, they operate much like squares do in an astrological chart. They'll never get each other's point of view, but they can come to some kind of respect, if grudging, for alternate needs, styles and perspectives. In essence, they have the potential to build character. This is not the GD intention for EDs, but rather a modern psychological one.

Mary

jackobo said:

I don't use dignities in pairing -except when the cards seem to scream at me to look at what surrounds them. A 6 of Wands and a 2 of Cups will be Victory+Love.

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In the Golden Dawn version of elemental dignities, these two cards would cancel each other out. They would simply not be read. When using the GD spreads I would simply not read them (or not read them together - depending on the 'count'). In any other spread their appearing together would be highly significant. However, as I mentioned in my previous response, I might consider that the drive for success could be at counter purposes to the need for a loving and sharing encounter.

Mary

balenciaga said:

So if it was a triad, and the center sword (AIR) card was flanked by one earth ace and another earth card, the center air card acts as only a filler for the gap in the triad - because one should pass over it as if it was blank?

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Can someone answer this question please?

Frannie said:

I have the book "21 ways to read a tarot card", where there is an explanation on dignities, is that enough to get me started?

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Certainly it can get you started, however, in looking it over, I occasionally sacrificed GD purity for modern usability. The single best place to start, if you want to understand the GD system, is with "Book T" - which is available in the following places:
* http://www.tarot.org.il/Library/Mathers/Book-T.html
* Regardie's _Complete GD System of Magic_
* Robert Wang's _An Introduction to the Golden Dawn Tarot_

Again, the important thing is to lay out the cards as Mathers shows them and follow the examples closely. Best to use a Marseilles or Italian-style deck so that the RWS images don't confuse you.

Also, I can recommend Paul Hughes-Barlow's lessons, even though we have some differences of opinion:
http://supertarot.co.uk/lessons/beg.htm
You have to really look around to get to all the good ED stuff, as it is scattered around the lessons.

Liz Hazel has written the best book on Elemental Dignities:
_Tarot Decoded: Understanding and Using Dignities and Correspondences_. She examines all kinds of "Dignities" from a primarily astrological pov. This book helps you to understand the concept of "dignity" in its largest sense, better than any other.

I have a doubt about neutral cards. Do they just DON'T count in a reading, like, ignoring them to the point of taking them off the table?

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I mention this above. When using a GD spread I ignore them. When using a Celtic Cross or other "non-order method" I read them, but look to see if they could reflect a problem. In a GD spread, based on the "counting" - a card that is ignored in a pair may become significant as part of a triad or vice-versa.

I also have a doubt when a card is Ill dignified.

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Liz Hazel's book is the best place to really clarify what ill-dignified means. Basically, the card is not operating at its best because it is "afflicted" in some way. This can be by card placement (a water card in a fire position in a spread), or is in relationship with any card with which there is some kind of traditional 'enmity.' The term is most often seen in classical astrology texts, although modern psychological astrology works differently.

let's say Fire and Water, like a 3 of wands and a 8 of cups, which one of both is ill dignified?

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Examples are good. The 3 of Wands part of you needs one thing in a situation, and the 8 of Cups part needs something else.

Let's say the RWS 3 of Wands needs to stay put (while everyone else sets sail?), while the 8 of Cups needs to leave in the middle of the night and go elsewhere. What do you do? For Mathers, we could say that these two needs cancel each other out as no action is possible. Other cards will tell the story of what happens. However, for me, this hidden inner conflict may be central to understanding WHY there's a problem. A decision (even if it's outwardly the same one) can be made more consciously and perhaps for different and more compassionate reasons.

Mary

rwcarter said:

I use dignities in triads - ABC. If B is Fire and A is Water, both cards are ill-dignified. But when it comes to interpretation, >> I << don't read either card as negative/reversed per se; instead I interpret B as being negatively affected by A. If the positions were reversed, I would interpret A as being negatively affected by B.

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Rodney, I agree. The central card is being affected (weakened or supported) by the flanking cards.

balenciaga said:

So if it was a triad, and the center sword (AIR) card was flanked by one earth ace and another earth card, the center air card acts as only a filler for the gap in the triad - because one should pass over it as if it was blank?

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Again, I wouldn't pass over it. For me, the center Air card would be weakened by both Earth cards. So, say a 4 Swords is surrounded by the Knight Pentacles and the 7 Pentacles. The two pentacles without the 4 Swords suggests to me perseverance, hard work, steady progress towards a goal, etc. With the 4 Swords in the center of the triad, my interpretation would be more towards being too busy working hard to reach a goal to take some much needed rest.

If it were Knight Pentacles, 7 Pentacles, 4 Swords, for me the 7 and 4 wouldn't cancel each other out thereby leaving the Knight. Instead I would probably interpret it something like steady progress is being made, but you're working too hard and not getting any/enough rest, which could affect your continued ability to work hard and therefore your future progress.

Does that help?

Rodney

rwcarter said:

When looking at pairs of cards outside a triad, you have to determine for yourself which is the primary card and which is the modifier. In AB, does A modify B or does B modify A? I've chosen A to be the primary and B the modifier, but it might make more sense to you (or someone else) to do the opposite. And that's fine.

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Rodney - excellent explanations of the triads, however I (and the GD) differ concerning pairs.

Miss Yuko - In practice, members of the GD often used a horseshoe shaped spread alone without using any of their other spreads. Triads were formed through a system of counting that is too complex to explain here (see Book T). Then the cards were paired from either end of the horseshoe in towards the middle where there might be a final pair or a single card left. Both cards were seen as equal and their meanings combined into a single thought.
6 of Wands + Ace of Wands = Great success (go for it!)
6 of Wands + 7 of Swords = Victory involving theft or subterfuge
6 of Wands + 4 of Pentacles = Hold on to your victory; success in holding on (not terribly strong)
6 of Wands + 9 of Cups = Wouldn't even read it.

You can pair any two cards in a spread to see how they would interact, but usually you consider how two cards that are linked in some way affect each other.

Mary

Teheuti said:

Rodney - excellent explanations of the triads, however I (and the GD) differ concerning pairs.

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I have Book T at home and will have to give it a look-see. I clicked on the link you included and glanced through the text, but nothing jumped out at me as explaining the interactions of the elements. I also have Wang's book and may have Regardie's book (I don't keep it with my tarot books, so don't have it indexed on my Treo and will have to wait til I get home to look).

One thing I've learned about me and tarot is that nothing's static - what I do tomorrow can be completely different from what I did yesterday cause I've learned something new since then!

Rodney

balenciaga said:

So if it was a triad, and the center sword (AIR) card was flanked by one earth ace and another earth card, the center air card acts as only a filler for the gap in the triad - because one should pass over it as if it was blank?

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If you are using a GD spread, this is exactly what you would do. I take it off the table completely.

kilts_knave said:

If you are using a GD spread, this is exactly what you would do. I take it off the table completely.

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Actually, it shows that the flanking cards dominate the center one, whose effects become extremely weak—but not nonexistent. Technically, it is not canceled out, although this is a subtle point. Rather than removing the center card from the table, I overlap it with the flanking cards to show it being dominated.