Ross G Caldwell
Hi Mary,
I think the major point is that Catharism doesn't count as a theory explaining the meaning of the Tarot trump sequence. It doesn't explain anything that requires explanation.
The allegories are common to Italy in the early 15th century. They are secular and religious, befitting a game of cards invented in that time and place.
A lot of things were just "5 miles away" from places where unorthodox ideas existed. I'd say it's a good bet that unorthodox ideas existed in Rome, hundreds of metres from the Vatican, or even in the head of the Pope himself.
The point is not that unorthodox ideas existed a certain distance from where Tarot was played, or even invented, but that there is absolutely no reason to believe in the first place that Tarot contains any unorthodox ideas.
Find the unorthodoxy, or something unusual to the culture of the time, and THEN seek an explanation for it.
Exactly. And therefore - this whole discussion is worthless except to expose a fraud.
I know very well the kind of people your scholar is referring to. It is a 20th century belief. When it comes up in conversation that I study Tarot history, they say things like "Il descend des cathares, non?" (It comes from the Cathars, doesn't it?) or the Templars, or the Egyptians, depending on what they've read... It is not really a folk tradition (depending on how many generations you think it takes to make a tradition); it is just pop-tarotism.
The popular idea of Catharism is mostly a romantic idea of the late 19th century, which occultists picked up much like the romantic idea of the Templars. It is not surprising that the oldest people around, when they have any opinion at all, repeat the legend. Where were they to get the facts, after all?
Teheuti said:Someone does need to bring out those old theories every once in a while as new connections could be made as new evidence is discovered.
I think the major point is that Catharism doesn't count as a theory explaining the meaning of the Tarot trump sequence. It doesn't explain anything that requires explanation.
The allegories are common to Italy in the early 15th century. They are secular and religious, befitting a game of cards invented in that time and place.
For instance, it doesn't seem totally far-fetched that the Cathar ex-pats in Concorezzo could have influenced the Umilitate order of Maifreda Visconti that was only 5 miles away or even had influence with Guglielma herself.
A lot of things were just "5 miles away" from places where unorthodox ideas existed. I'd say it's a good bet that unorthodox ideas existed in Rome, hundreds of metres from the Vatican, or even in the head of the Pope himself.
The point is not that unorthodox ideas existed a certain distance from where Tarot was played, or even invented, but that there is absolutely no reason to believe in the first place that Tarot contains any unorthodox ideas.
Find the unorthodoxy, or something unusual to the culture of the time, and THEN seek an explanation for it.
But that doesn't mean they influenced the design of the deck, either in the 15th c nor especially much later in Marseille.
Exactly. And therefore - this whole discussion is worthless except to expose a fraud.
You rightly point out important historical works that have examined the Cathar question and the issues they bring up should be addressed. And I agree with you about that.
At the American Culture Association conference a few months ago, a scholar of the Langue d'Oc (spelling?) mentioned that 30 to 40 years ago when she lived there that elderly locals all believed that the tarot originated with the Cathars of the region. It was part of their folk beliefs. Sorry - I can't look up her name - am writing from a friend's flat in London.
Mary
I know very well the kind of people your scholar is referring to. It is a 20th century belief. When it comes up in conversation that I study Tarot history, they say things like "Il descend des cathares, non?" (It comes from the Cathars, doesn't it?) or the Templars, or the Egyptians, depending on what they've read... It is not really a folk tradition (depending on how many generations you think it takes to make a tradition); it is just pop-tarotism.
The popular idea of Catharism is mostly a romantic idea of the late 19th century, which occultists picked up much like the romantic idea of the Templars. It is not surprising that the oldest people around, when they have any opinion at all, repeat the legend. Where were they to get the facts, after all?