Pamela Colman Smith

Lillie

Ok.

Where does this idea of 'Pauper's Burial' or 'Burial at the expense of the Parish' come from?

Is there some official document that says this?

Because I just thought this.

There are different parishes. The govenment cuts the country up into parishes (civil parishes). The church of England also does (ecclesiastical parishes).
These are the two you would think of when things like so called 'Pauper's graves' and 'parish relief' are mentioned.

But. The Catholic church has it's own parishes.

Now, it seems that PCS was not poor enough in life to get Parish relief, dole money or income support, or whatever they had then. In that case she wouldn't really have been a 'Pauper', although she might have been poor.

Only after her death, when it seems a parish of some kind steps in to pay for her burial, does she become poor enough for that kind of help.

And I thought. 'If she was so well in with the church, with priests and all that, like has been reported. Why didn't they do something?'
But maybe they did. Maybe the parish that buried her is the catholic parish and not the local government.

See, there are just so many questions. And so far I have not seen one piece of actual evidence. It's all hearsay. It's all 'wikipedia, google and shit.'
Are there any original documents? Has anyone bothered to get her death certificate, for instance?
Where does this 'Pauper's grave' story come from?
Is there actually any hard evidence at all?

caridwen

Lillie said:
That was one of the questions I raised in my previous post.
I'll go over it again.

Her church would probably have been St Peter's, the local RC church. However, they have no graveyard that I can find.

So, where were local Catholics buried?

As a devout Catholic, PCS would have been known to her local priest and parish. Catholics are somewhat particular about being buried in Catholic ground. Even if PCS wasn't, her local Priest would have ensured she was.

Also. Burials at the expense of the parish, what you are calling by their informal and colloquial name 'Pauper's graves'.

I'm not going to go further with this debate.

Were they of necessity in the Parish church? (in this case St Michael's, which is of course CoE, as are all parish churches) Or was the religion of the deceased taken into account when the parish arranged the burial?

Religion of deceased would most certainly be taken into account.

Also another question would be what was her parish and how do we define it?

As far as I can see from here:http://www.plymouth-diocese.org.uk/index.php?q=dir/parishes/cornwall/launceston her local Parish was Launceston which served both Bude and Holsworthy.

Where she lived has sometimes been in the local government parish of Bude Haven, and sometimes in Bude Stratton. They move the borders.
I believe that where she lived has always been in the ecclesiastical Parish of Bude Haven. However, I don't know what difference that would have made when determining the place of burial.

All Parishes for Cornwall are here: http://www.plymouth-diocese.org.uk/index.php?q=dir/parishes/cornwall

Place of burial would have been her local Parish. Her local Parish was Launceston. Her Diocese was Plymouth.

Cari, regarding your comments about obits etc. Which local bude newspapers did you look at? And where did you find their archives?

No one can find any. There are no obituary's that anyone has found. Pamela Colman Smith was buried as a pauper, all her belongings and personal affects were auctioned off and she didn't even have a burial service. There is so little information about her that I started this thread in order to find out why she ended up the way she did. There is little if any account of the last 35 years of her life.

I will take a massive leap and say Launceston graveyard somewhere. The best person to ask would be Kaplan who researched this.

Lillie

Her death, by the way, was registered in 1951, under the name Corrine P M C Smith. and was registered in the district of Stratton.

I can't find any more. I no longer have a sub for ancestry. But for anyone who does it would be easy to find the index number and order the certificate.

caridwen

Lillie said:
Why didn't they do something?

This is why I started this thread. Why didn't anyone help her, if not in life, then in death?

Both parents were dead and she didn't have any siblings. She was entrusted to three people on the death of her mother (Ellen Terry, Henry Irving, and Bram Stoker) as her father was too feckless to be handed responsibility.

And so far I have not seen one piece of actual evidence. It's all hearsay. It's all 'wikipedia, google and shit.'
Are there any original documents? Has anyone bothered to get her death certificate, for instance?
Where does this 'Pauper's grave' story come from?
Is there actually any hard evidence at all?

This is what I am trying to find out. There seems to be little if any actual documentation of why she isolated herself. My first question was regarding her association with the Golden Dawn. Since they are supposed to be a fraternal organisation, couldn't they have at least coughed up for a decent burial? It seems as though however, PCS cut herself from all society even before she moved to Cornwall. She may actually have been suffering from depression or some other kind of illness, who knows?? That's my point.

All I have found is prejudicial conjecture. No hard facts. A E Waite was a Catholic, there were Catholics in the Golden Dawn as well as people from other religions so that would not cause any kind of expulsion or exclusion. I'm wondering if she was looking for some kind of faith for comfort. Religion can be very comforting to someone who feels like an outsider or different and she may have become a member of the Golden Dawn for exactly those reasons. The in fighting may have caused her distress and she turned to Catholicism. This again is only guesswork.

I have not found any letters or diary entries to answer any of these questions and others seem to have gone on guesswork.

So my question was how on earth did she end up the way she did? Why didn't anyone help her? If not during her lifetime then at least make sure she had a decent burial and maybe look after her legacy.

Lillie

The two links give her parish as the ecclesiastical parish of the Roman Catholic church.

However, generally when someone is buried by their parish it means either the civil parish, or the CoE parish.

What is the evidence that for a so called 'Pauper's Burial' in 1951, that the religion of the deceased was taken into account?
Do you have something that says or implies that? Not necessarily about her, of course, but in general.

All I have read from Kaplan is the bit that is always quoted. That he went somewhere and talked to someone.
But where? Who?
It's impossible to judge what he was told until and unless we know where he went, who he talked too and exactly what they told him.
Do you have a better report of the incident than the one that is always quoted, because frankly, much as I admire Mr Kaplan, as documentary evidence of anything, it's just not good enough.

You say that no one has found obits or anything. But where has been searched? Who searched it?
Local papers are full of stuff that would never be reported anywhere else. Has anyone been able to find them? Has anyone tried?

And this 'Pauper's burial', auctioning of her property. Where is the first hand evidence of that? All I can find is people talking about it like it's something they got from somewhere else, and no one ever quotes a primary source.
What is the primary source?

As we don't even know how to understand the phrase 'pauper's burial' (yes, I know you think you do, but really pauper=poor - therefore... just isn't correct, not in this context) then how can we judge what it meant?
And if it was a burial paid for by the parish, then what parish? As I have stated, there are three to be considered. You can't just pick the one you like because it's what you want to believe.
We need primary sources, and until they are found then none of it can be considered truth.

I know she's dead because I have found her death in the BMD indexes. That's a primary source, it's evidence from a trusted source, not hearsay, or someone's uncited opinion.
As far as I am concerned, nothing else is even remotely proven, not without some kind of proper evidence.

gregory

Most churches have burial records. The fact that St Michael's seemed to "know" she was there somewhere suggests that that is in fact where she was buried. Anyone with the energy can go down there and look at the parish records.

Sure - they might like to take religion into account. But churchyards had defined areas where non-believers would have been put. A parish burial is the civil parish which is very very often coterminous with the CofE parish, as the parish of the established church (as in a government agency; just as a CofE minister is the only religious official who can legally marry you without there being a registrar present as well, unless the priest has qualified as a registrar.)

A parish burial is a civil thing, not a religious one.

caridwen

Lillie said:
The two links give her parish as the ecclesiastical parish of the Roman Catholic church.

However, generally when someone is buried by their parish it means either the civil parish, or the CoE parish.

What is the evidence that for a so called 'Pauper's Burial' in 1951, that the religion of the deceased was taken into account?

Do you have something that says or implies that? Not necessarily about her, of course, but in general.

All I have read from Kaplan is the bit that is always quoted. That he went somewhere and talked to someone.
But where? Who?
It's impossible to judge what he was told until and unless we know where he went, who he talked too and exactly what they told him.
Do you have a better report of the incident than the one that is always quoted, because frankly, much as I admire Mr Kaplan, as documentary evidence of anything, it's just not good enough.

You say that no one has found obits or anything. But where has been searched? Who searched it?
Local papers are full of stuff that would never be reported anywhere else. Has anyone been able to find them? Has anyone tried?

And this 'Pauper's burial', auctioning of her property. Where is the first hand evidence of that? All I can find is people talking about it like it's something they got from somewhere else, and no one ever quotes a primary source.
What is the primary source?

As we don't even know how to understand the phrase 'pauper's burial' (yes, I know you think you do, but really pauper=poor - therefore... just isn't correct, not in this context) then how can we judge what it meant?
And if it was a burial paid for by the parish, then what parish? As I have stated, there are three to be considered. You can't just pick the one you like because it's what you want to believe.
We need primary sources, and until they are found then none of it can be considered truth.

I know she's dead because I have found her death in the BMD indexes. That's a primary source, it's evidence from a trusted source, not hearsay, or someone's uncited opinion.
As far as I am concerned, nothing else is even remotely proven, not without some kind of proper evidence.

The information in this thread so far, is all the information I know off that is available. There is no biography of P C Smith. It may help if you read the thread because I have repeated this information quite a few times. I suggest you start by reading the interview with Kaplan on the first page of the thread. This is where he explains how he went to Cornwall in order to lay a gravestone but couldn't find the site. He does not specify exactly where he went. I was not there so cannot tell you where he went or where he got that information from. Kaplan is the best person to ask. Asking me isn't helpful because I am not in contact with Kaplan in order to ask him detailed questions. All the information I have is in the interview he gave.

The point of this thread wasn't to specifically discuss her death. The point of the thread is to find out what happened to her. To find out if anyone has any more information. So the point of the thread is to find out more information.

Her life up until 1914 is pretty well documented. From then until her death, we know little. How do I know we know little? Because information is scant. There is no biography and very little if any autobiographical material. So the point of the thread is to try and fill in the gaps by pooling information.

If you wish to find out where Kaplan went and other information regarding the interview, I suggest you contact him and ask him. I would also be interested to find out exactly where he went and who he spoke to. I do not have his contact details.

I am currently researching as well so will post any new information I have here.

Lillie

gregory said:
Most churches have burial records. The fact that St Michael's seemed to "know" she was there somewhere suggests that that is in fact where she was buried. Anyone with the energy can go down there and look at the parish records.

Sure - they might like to take religion into account. But churchyards had defined areas where non-believers would have been put. A parish burial is the civil parish which is very very often coterminous with the CofE parish, as the parish of the established church (as in a government agency; just as a CofE minister is the only religious official who can legally marry you without there being a registrar present as well, unless the priest has qualified as a registrar.)

A parish burial is a civil thing, not a religious one.

Yes, that's what I've always thought.

But again, that is only relevant if she was buried at the expense of the parish.
And where is the evidence for that?

And that's the trouble with the internet. People say stuff, and then people quote it like it was proven truth.
Where's the intellectual rigour?
Where's the evidence that she was buried like that?
There's really no point even discussing what 'buried by the parish' means unless we know where that bit of info came from and we can judge it veracity and authenticity.

It must have come from somewhere. Someone must have said it first.

Gregs, you have that book on PCS. The Frank Jensen one? Does that have biographical stuff? Does it quote sources?

I've also read that her will left everything to her friend Nora. But as there was nothing left after her debts were paid, there was nothing for Nora to have.
If this is true then there was a will, it was probated. It can be got and it can be read. Has any one done this? who?

Without hard evidence it's all just so much meaningless talk.

Lillie

caridwen said:
The information in this thread so far, is all the information I know off that is available. There is no biography of P C Smith. It may help if you read the thread because I have repeated this information quite a few times. I suggest you start by reading the interview with Kaplan on the first page of the thread. This is where he explains how he went to Cornwall in order to lay a gravestone but couldn't find the site. He does not specify exactly where he went. I was not there so cannot tell you where he went or where he got that information from. Kaplan is the best person to ask. Asking me isn't helpful because I am not in contact with Kaplan in order to ask him detailed questions. All the information I have is in the interview he gave.

And as I have said, as it stands, it is meaningless.
It's bad research to believe unsubstantiated hearsay.

The point of this thread wasn't to specifically discuss her death. If you wish to do so, I suggest you start a thread on the subject.

Threads develop. I believe that my posts are on the topic of this thread.
The title is Pamela Colman Smith. My posts are on that subject, and my replies have followed on from posts already made by others.

I did not know that it was in the power of a thread starter to dictate the direction in which a thread developed.
Perhaps a mod could clarify how much a thread is allowed to develop or not.

caridwen

gregory said:
Most churches have burial records. The fact that St Michael's seemed to "know" she was there somewhere suggests that that is in fact where she was buried. Anyone with the energy can go down there and look at the parish records.

Sure - they might like to take religion into account. But churchyards had defined areas where non-believers would have been put. A parish burial is the civil parish which is very very often coterminous with the CofE parish, as the parish of the established church (as in a government agency; just as a CofE minister is the only religious official who can legally marry you without there being a registrar present as well, unless the priest has qualified as a registrar.)

A parish burial is a civil thing, not a religious one.

There is already a thread on this subject discussing where her site might be which you kindly posted earlier. I'm sure this would be good information to put there:
http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?t=28086