trumps relation with the planets/signs

Hi everyone,

I am very new at this forum and greeting to everyone!

I am looking for the relation between trumps and planets/signs regarding Rider- Waite's Tarot deck. I made a list, but some of cards are represent by different planets/signs in several sources. For examle, some says World is represented by Saturn, Fool is represented by Neptune etc.. I can't be sure! Does anyone help me?

And also, i found Chariot is represented by Cancer, but i couldn't understand the definiton exhaustively...

0- Uranus
1- Mercury
2- Moon
3- Venus
4- Aries
5- Taurus
6- Gemini
7- Cancer
8- Leo
9- Virgo
10- Jupiter
11- Libra
12- Neptune
13- Scorpio
14- Sagitarius
15- Capricorn
16- Mars
17- Aquarious
18- Pisces
19- Sun
20- Pluto
21- Saturn

Thanks!

Ozge

The correlations of 0, 12, 20 with Uranus, Neptune, Pluto, respectively, were not part of the original Golden Dawn system but are later additions. Trumps 0, 12, 20 are on the paths associated the Hebrew maternal letters, aleph, mem, shin, and these letters were associated not with planets but with the elements Air, Water, Fire, respectively. The planets were the so-called double letters (of which there are seven), and the zodiacal constellations are the simple letters (of which there are 12). I sort of like the elegance of the original system. It is missing the element Earth, and there was a suggestion to split up the path of Trump 21 so that one part was Saturn and the other the element not the planet, Earth, but I think that is unnecessary, glaringly inelegant, and confusing, since Earth is both a planet and an element.

Regarding The Chariot. The natural ordering puts it on the path of the letter cheth, which in at least one version of the Sepher Yetzirah is correlated with Cancer. Since the Chariot is mobile (like water) and suggests aggressiveness and forward motion, the cardinal water sign Cancer seems appropriate.

I asked a similar question in this thread, and got some great sources for checking things.

http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?t=169149

Book T is a good source for the original Golden Dawn correlations.

All versions of the Sepher Yetzirah (a book of Hebrew Kabbalah that gives correspondences for the Hebrew letters, numbers and astrology) have the same correlations for the signs of the Zodiac; the seven planets vary from version to version. People who change the Golden Dawn-based attributions are usually not taking the Kabbalistic correspondences into account.

Crowley attempts to clear up the Cancer-Chariot attribution by saying that it's really like Mars in Cancer. Either way, you can see the Charioteer as the protector of those who are weaker, more sensitive or more vulnerable — like armor protects the vulnerable chest or a shell protects a crab or a home protects us from the elements. I kind of like the idea of the vulnerable human in protective gear or an armored vehicle. We tend to forget that Cancer is a Cardinal sign of the Zodiac, marking the Summer Solstice and longest day of the year, the strength of the Sun/Son.

A completely different set of Tarot-astrology correspondences are found in the French decks that begin the Hebrew letter sequence with the Magician (Aleph=1) while the Golden Dawn begins it with the Fool (0=Aleph).

Here is a diagram I made for my own use. The Roman numerals on paths 12 through 32 refer to the corresponding Major Trumps. The Fool is deprived of a number because there ain't a Roman numeral for zero. The planetary symbols in Sephiroth 1, 2, 10, are enclosed in parentheses because they are not part of the original GD correlations. A very slightly modified Arial font is used for the Hebrew letters.

Teheuti said:

All versions of the Sepher Yetzirah (a book of Hebrew Kabbalah that gives correspondences for the Hebrew letters, numbers and astrology) have the same correlations for the signs of the Zodiac; the seven planets vary from version to version. People who change the Golden Dawn-based attributions are usually not taking the Kabbalistic correspondences into account.......

Click to expand...

Yes indeed, thanks for the observation/correction. The Zodiac has a natural ordering. Historically, that was not so for the Planets.

Thank you all for helpful info... I will check them out!

Hi LRichard,

LRichard said:

Yes indeed, thanks for the observation/correction. The Zodiac has a natural ordering. Historically, that was not so for the Planets.

Click to expand...

I might be misunderstanding you, but there was a standard historical, "natural", ordering of the planets, based on the speed of their movement or change in the sky:

Moon
Mercury
Venus
Sun
Mars
Jupiter
Saturn

When put into the complete cosmology in the Graeco-Roman era (4th century b.c.e. - 3rd century c.e.; i.e. "classical antiquity"), formalized as the "Ptolemaic" system, including Earth as the stationary centre, they can be numbered as -

(Earth, the Sphere of the Elements - 10)
Moon -9
Mercury - 8
Venus - 7
Sun - 6
Mars -5
Jupiter - 4
Saturn - 3
(Sphere of the Fixed Stars (as opposed to the "Moving Stars", the Planets) - 2)
(First Mover, Empyrean, God - 1)

So the system shows the apparent distance from Earth, based on the speed of movement in the sky. I'm almost certain that any textual tradition coming from a European or Middle Eastern background knows this logical order.

But perhaps you meant that the Sefer Yetzirah doesn't, historically, present the same order. This is true, but only partly. It seems that the Westcott and the Golden Dawn relying on him, had the misfortune to have the "wrong" text of the Sefer Yetzirah. The better or more authoritative texts, at least according to what I have read in Aryeh Kaplan and elsewhere, present this classical or Ptolemaic order properly, with the sole exception of the Moon.

The GD order is based on a text which has -

B - Mercury - 8
G - Moon - 9
D - Venus - 7
K - Jupiter - 4
P - Mars - 5
R - Sun - 6
Th - Saturn - 3

(I use the numbers because it easier to see the "ordering" concept that way) There doesn't seem to be any logical order to the planets here, at least as far as I can discern.

The other Sefer Yetzirah tradition has the order -

B - Moon - 9
G - Mars - 5
D - Sun - 6
K - Venus - 7
P - Mercury - 8
R - Saturn - 3
Th - Jupiter - 4

This order, with only a single one, 9 the Moon, misplaced, cannot be accidental. To put it another way, for those not used to the classical cosmology, take the numbering from fastest to slowest, Moon to Saturn, as 7 to 1:

Moon - 7
Mars - 3
Sun - 4
Venus - 5
Mercury - 6
Saturn - 1
Jupiter - 2

The sequence is 7-3-4-5-6-1-2. Only the fastest planet, the Moon - 7, is out of place. Read it as, for instance, 3-4-5-6-(7)-1-2.

Why the authors of the SY wanted the Moon as the first day, and Saturn as the sixth, I don't know; but the rest follow the classical order exactly, taking into account those preferences.

It's also clear that the author of the SY did not assign the planets, in either system, to the standard classical planets with the days of the week (admittedly late classical, so perhaps indicating the SY's age, before the Roman (Christian) Empire adopted the seven-day week):

Sunday - Sun - 6
Monday - Moon - 9
Tuesday - Mars - 5
Wednesday - Mercury - 8
Thursday - Jupiter - 4
Friday - Venus - 7
Saturday - Saturn - 3

Did I misunderstand you?