Major Arcana titles: La Maison-Diev

kwaw

Re: sagitta

Huck said:

What associates number 16? Geomancy for instance. But also the ..... Jupiter square. Do you know Duerers "Melancholy"? There is a Jupiter-square. 4x4.

Do you know the Saturn-square. 3x3. That's 9.

9 Hermit, associated to Chronos, Father Time.


It is said by some that the GD 0/1; 1/2 etc., paradigm is a 20th century interpretation anachronistic within a historical context. Of course as maybe be obvious by now I don't swallow that, and have given examples from the middle ages and in the bible.

Yes I for one know Durer's 'Melancholy', which as you say incorporates the four fold square of Jupiter.

3/4?
Kwaw
 

Huck

Re: Re: sagitta

kwaw said:
It is said by some that the GD 0/1; 1/2 etc., paradigm is a 20th century interpretation anachronistic within a historical context. Of course as maybe be obvious by now I don't swallow that, and have given examples from the middle ages and in the bible.

Yes I for one know Durer's 'Melancholy', which as you say incorporates the four fold square of Jupiter.

3/4?
Kwaw

I don't see, how the one problem (GD-Kabbala-Tarot-interpretation) touches the other, the choice of a 9 for Father Time and a 16 for Jupiter, symbolized by a lightning, done by the imagination of some humans around 400 years before the others did act according to a book, written around more than 1500 years before their time (SY).
In the GD-Version and also in the Levi/Papus-Version the card 9 doesn't present a planet, it couldn't, otherwise they would have hurted their system. And the humble renaissance-moon of card 18 is suddenly not moon, but zodiac-sign Pisces or Aquarius.

Why not, but this has nothing to do with any insight, what these renaissance people had in their mind, when they painted their cards.
Agrippa knows the Jupiter square, also the Saturn-square. Also Duerer. Both are contemporary to the possible first appearance of the Tower card.
I don't know, if Agrippa knew the Sepher Yetzirah, but I would have great doubts, if Duerer knew about it.
Johannes Reuchlin had a lot to do to tell a little bit about Hebrew language. Kabbalistic contents weren't around in these years. And most of the numerology were done decades before Pico de Mirandola. Kabbalistic teachings couldn't influence the early Trionfi cards.
They could influence the choice of the final number of the cards, that's true.
 

ArcanoMáximo

The title of this card has always intrigued me. Why call it a Maison-Dieu? (God's House).Diana

I know that it’s an old thread but I found it very interesting.
For me the answer is exactly what means,is not The house OF G@D but G@D "The House", opened for up and for under ("like it is up it is below") and our place of security to which we are not even forced to stay (free will). There is who says that is also the own human body that contains the divinity and that it’s the moment of "“to wake up" of the conscience what is shown in this card. Also the fact that it is a V and not an U is the same that why in some titles there is a point (.) among the words (for example "LE.MAT") and in others not (f.e:"LE SOLEIL"). For me a premeditated intention of making some errors to confuse or to leave open doors. Jodorowski says that it is a characteristic feature of those "Sacred Sciences" in which the designs are not completely harmonic, simetric. I would add that Tarot is saying that The Perfect is an illusion, something evil because doesn't leave place to other options, to the change, which is opossite to G@D. And is something shown in the all Tarot structure. In " La Voi du Tarot" Jodorowski remember us even that in the Babel Tower were not a dramatic destruction. For him and other authors the beings aren´t falling down but walking on his hands. A beatiful image, don’t you agree?
 

venicebard

I wanted to respond to this thread, which I read, along with an older one jmd linked, to second what jmd said in the older thread and of course unload what I think is the meaning of the card.

M. jmd: I’m with you (an opinion you expressed in August 2002) on the irreverence of Camoin to destroy the ‘ambiguity’ of the figure on the right (making him come out a door at the tower's front), especially as I interpret the trump straightforwardly, as unity’s blasting of duality (fall of duality from its stronghold), the shattering of illusion. To me, the fact that the figure on the right is mostly obscured by the tower is partly a matter of ROOM - no room for two falling figures (without obscuring the background) except by making them so much smaller than the twins in trumps XVIIII and V as to obscure their connection thereto - and a little bit a matter that its place in the year is at the height of the heroic waxing year, when the satiric antihero twin is dormant or obscure (until after summer solstice). Also, the red and green horizontal stripes obscure the phallic tall window surmounting two smaller windows, meant to seal the orgasmic imagery of the card.

There IS a Babylonian, hence Babel, connection: sixteen in bardic tradition is the willow, on which Hebrews hung their harps when passing through Babylon. The most characteristic variety (haling from China originally, I believe) is called 'Babylonian weeping willow'.

Perhaps this trump is recognition that one no longer needs 'God' once one has located one's conscience. In other words, to the wise, 'God' is merely a substitute for conscience. After all, if 'God' told one to do something conscience rejects, who would the devout follow, God or conscience, the former 'out there' somewhere, the latter within?
 

jmd

I do not recall insinuating that Camoin was irreverent in his usage of a particular Besançon-style XVI in depicting (unfortunately) a door upon his deck. Rather, I personally prefer renditions that do not visually show any assumed lower door from which falls out the lower of the two figures (as I mentioned in my review written some three years ago, that I would now write somewhat differently in any case).

It is interesting to revisit this thread since other considerations have also taken place, such as, for example, whether titles were at all given on early Marseille decks (as opposed to other decks for which we know no titles were included upon the image) - Cf the thread 'Were Names and Numbers on Early Tarot de Marseille?'.

Anyhow, the title upon the card seems wonderfully clear in certainly most decks... and the possible reasons for it have been suggested earlier - there may of course be others which will lead into whole new discussions!
 

ArcanoMáximo

At the bottom, i guess, we only may have just some opinions. Where is the real truth ? Someone have it ? But i'm sure we must have both meanings in mind, for my reading experience. Take that of the fall of Babylonia the great is very interesting too. I would say that can also be compared with the overthrow of the Temple of Jerusalem or of Salomón with the Roman occupation, or also Sodoma and Gomorra, or Atlantis... And what to say about the Bembo deck where is called Pluto's Castle? And has also been called L ' Hospital, La Sagitta (the arrow). And if we go more behind the myths of Mitra and Dionisios, the Telesterión and Marcos's Gnostic. Whatever, for well or for bad in definitive I would say that it is more a cathartic period that a total ruin, is the crisis from which the change arises. For that reason I believe that it also adjusts the position of Jodorowsky.
Let mwe share you to bit of the "Rituale Rumanum", Pope Pablo V's exorcist ceremony:

"Fear to whom was
Immolated in Isaac
Sold in Joseph
Dead in the lamb
Crucified in the man
And then winner on the hell..."
 

ArcanoMáximo

"Marcos's Gnostic"
I mean Marcos' gnostic credo, and the alchemmic theories about the trasmutation of the died matter by the divine fire. And inside the mythology we would also have the dethronement of Uranus for Cronos, Cronos for Zeus, Seth for Orus, all signal ones in The Devil's Picture Book of Paul Huson...
 

Rosanne

I read the this thread with interest and would like to add a couple of things that I thought.
Jupiter was the ruling God of Rome, He was the gaurdian of Property and Oaths and Legal Documents.
One of his names was Jupiter Stator (Standing)
Jupiter's High priest was Flamen Dialis (Great name don't you think :D )
Flamen Dialis could or had the right to throw people off the roof of the Temple on Capitoline Hill. He could also throw slave chains off the same and free the slave.
The tower seems to have mostly three windows- the Trinity
and by Jove he was known as God and King and later Pope. Now if I was a heretic I would certainly want to see the standing Jupiter destroyed, and Flamen Dialis thrown off the roof of the temple of Rome- but I have absolutely no idea what the billiard Balls are all about ~Rosanne
 

Fulgour

Capricorn

Rosanne said:
- but I have absolutely no idea what the billiard Balls are all about
The 16th letter Ayin in the original Phoenician alphabet
looks exactly like a circle, a round ring: an O but smaller.
XVI La Maison Dieu and letter 16 Ayin go well together...
 

Rosanne

Thanks Fulgour that makes sense - oooo and ahhhh the eye of Ayin, I had forgotton that when I looked at the Popes palace a crumbling down :laugh: ~Rosanne