scytheless death? RWS vs. predecessor decks

Rasa

Last night, I was teaching the first session of my latest round of Tarot classes, and one of my students posed an interesting question.

I passed around a couple of older style decks, and she noted that the death card depicted a skeleton with a scythe in each of those, but that Waite and Smith's death was not only on a horse, but also lacking a scythe and wondered why they might have chosen to change the image so much, and remove a component that seemed, to her, to be central to the nature of the card.

I was interested to hear others' thoughts on this.

Here are some of mine:
-the death image looks less violent, maybe, without the weapon, though the armor makes the figure seem less vulnerable, to me
-the scythe connects death to harvesting, so maybe leaving that out suggests human mortality more strongly

Some major arcana in Visconti or Marseilles or other early decks seem to carry quite a different meaning to me than the Waite counterpart, but Death seems like such a strong archetype with a clear meaning that to me even though the imagery is quite different, they convey the same thing.

Do you think Waite and Smith were trying to convey something drastically different than the older images were, and if so, what?
 

The 78th Fool

I'm speaking off the top of my head here but I think the key symbol on the Waite-Smith Death card is the black banner with the white rose. One of the recurring themes of the deck (and one that featured on the original card back design) is the rose and the lily. On several cards, notably the Magician and the Two of Wands there are juxtapositions of red roses representing passion and white lilies representing purity. On other cards you see roses or lilies on their own (Queen of Pentacles and Six of Cups).

On all other cards, Roses are always shown as red and lilies as white. The death card is unique in showing the emblem of a white rose being carried by the skeleton. I think this is a symbol of Death as the purifier of human passions. This would certainly fit within the mystical Christian aspects of Waite's worldview for in Christianity, death is seen as a release from the chains of sin.

Chris. xx
 

teomat

The 78th Fool said:
On all other cards, Roses are always shown as red and lilies as white. The death card is unique in showing the emblem of a white rose being carried by the skeleton.
Not quite unique - the Fool is carrying a white rose too. And both Death and the Fool have red feathers and are accompanied by white animals.

There's something very interesting about this pairing - some deep connection that perhaps Waite/Smith were alluding to, but which I haven't quite figured out.
 

The 78th Fool

I'd forgotten about the Fool! xx
 

meghandawson`

I got this from a pictorial key Waite had published, these are his words not mine:

" The veil or mask of life is perpetuated in change, transformation and passage from lower to higher, and this is more fitly represented in the rectified Tarot by one of the apocalyptic visions than by the crude notion of the reaping skeleton. Behind it lies the whole world of ascent in the spirit. The mysterious horseman moves slowly, bearing a black banner emblazoned with the Mystic Rose, which signifies life. Between two pillars on the verge of the horizon there shines the sun of immortality. The horseman carries no visible weapon, but king and child and maiden fall before him, while a prelate with clasped hands awaits his end.
There should be no need to point out that the suggestion of death which I have made in connection with the previous card is, of course, to be understood mystically, but this is not the case in the present instance. The natural transit of man to the next stage of his being either is or may be one form of his progress, but the exotic and almost unknown entrance, while still in this life, into the state of mystical death is a change in the form of consciousness and the passage into a state to which ordinary death is neither the path nor gate. The existing occult explanations of the 13th card are, on the whole, better than usual, rebirth, creation, destination, renewal, and the rest. "


so maybe he took away the scythe because it doesn't represent a literal death.
 

Rasa

*thwaps self in forehead* Duh!
Thanks, Meghan.. for some reason, the thought didn't even cross my mind to check Waite's own words... I guess I need to give another reread to the PKT; it's been awhile! ;)

Although, you say that Waite doesn't intend to mean literal death, and while most of what he writes there seems to support that, the one sentence,
"There should be no need to point out that the suggestion of death which I have made in connection with the previous card is, of course, to be understood mystically, but this is not the case in the present instance."
seems to indicate otherwise, doesn't it? Unless I'm reading it wrong.
 

Abrac

For me, the key to understanding the difference between the RWS Death and the older ones is in Waite's statement,

"The veil or mask of life is perpetuated in change, transformation and passage from lower to higher, and this is more fitly represented in the rectified Tarot by one of the apocalyptic visions than by the crude notion of the reaping skeleton."

Well, what does he mean by this? By "rectified Tarot" he's talking about his new deck. I think by "one of the apocalyptic visions" he must mean one of the four horsemen of the Apocalypse of St. John, aka, the Book of Revelation. One of the horsemen there is called Death. He seems to be saying that such imagery is a better means of conveyance for the ideas he wants to get across.

He points out that the skeleton with a scythe mowing things downs rather haphazardly is too "crude" for what he has in mind. His Death moves slowly and with purpose. It conveys the message that death is an instrument for change, progress, and new life, not just a random act with no apparent rhyme or reason. :)
 

Abrac

Hi Rasa, I think you're reading it right. To me the key is in his refernce in the first sentence to the "veil or mask of lfe." The "veil" in occult philosophy refers to the material world.

In the next sentence after the one you mentioned, he seems to continue his train of thought by making a statement about literal death, "The natural transit of man to the next stage of his being either is, or may be, one form of his progress," but then takes a detour to comment on the other, lesser known death, the "mystical death." At least that's how I read it.

So I think the subject matter of the Death card deals with literal death, but Waite's writing style tends to confuse this point. Of course I could be wrong. :)
 

lucifall

Abrac said:
"veil or mask of life."

Is the banner a veil thorned away by death?
Life and Death only split apart by a veil?
On Death the Banner is black while the banner on the Sun is full of life and red.
The Sun bears a banner, and a feather and is riding a horse.
All three, 0, 13 and 19 have company and are accompanied and are on a kind of travel.

Is it coincedence that 0 + 13 + 19 points to the 32 paths of wisdom?

Is this also telling us we are also always accompanied on our journeys on these paths?

quote Waite:
"The sun, which shines behind him, knows whence he came, whither he is going, and how he will return by another path after many days"

the floral life on the cards shows us: the white mystical rose of the fool, travels to the banner which Death is bearing, is materialized there, transformed and held up as victory (which is related to the laurel wreath of the Fool and the wreath and banner of the child of the Sun) then later on the SunCard the Rose is changed into other floral life: 4 sunflowers which are Flowers which turn with the Sun during His daily journey. (4 :Morning-Afternoon-Evening-Night)

Also the Sun (See quote) is pictured on those three cards. The white Sun of Kether on the Fool, The rising Sun in the East of the Death Card and the Central Sun on 19. 19 which is the card preceding 20. Judgment where deaths arise out of their coffins.

From 0 Life Power / Superconsciousness to
13 Death / Transformation to
19 Sun/ The (inner) Child Reborn

Waite changed the fool in its walking direction. His Fool walks West (as the Sun do)
He changed the Death card with the Banner and the Rose and we see a Rising Sun in the East.
he changed the Sun card here in one Child riding a horse out of the garden of Sunflowers with the Central Sun

Maybe the mystical reason could be found in the combination Fool, Death and Sun as they share a lot of same or related symbology and point out to Death and a New Born Child?
The Fool knows it All, as he has stored these secrets in his superconciousness. Superconsciousness we are taken along into all our lifes/reincarnations.

maybe a foolish thought :)

Light
Luci
 

Parzival

scytheless death

This path from Fool to Death to Sun is striking: I think of it as birth, death/transformation, rebirth. The river in the Death image is a kind of bridge between fall of the Fool and the up-rising banner of the Sun. Thanks, Lucifall.