The Occult Achievement of the 20th Century-The Thoth

nicky

Kenshin Gordon said:
Well, you suppose you can't die, that human is immortal. I know of no man(except Christ) proving it, even though I believe that human is amphibian: half animal, half Soul. As an animal he inherits time, and he has a Soul. But he is always a foolish and arrogant creation with a great tendency to stick his nose without a limit, a measure. Two opposites merged together to form an entity which History itself proves to be young, immature and pretty destructive and power thirsty-without the proper measure.

How is this on topic?

Hieromagus

Grigori said:
Being in communication with deity, and realizing your identity as that deity are just stages of development in the qabalistic model. The first you reach tipareth, the second you cross the abyss.

I love how easy you just made that sound!

Kenshin Gordon said:
Except Jesus Christ who is God in flesh, who other can claim this unity?

In the context of the Thoth forum, this comes off as a Christian throwing himself at the lions, all on his own.

nicky

Hieromagus said:
In the context of the Thoth forum, this comes off as a Christian throwing himself at the lions, all on his own.

he must have been reading AC's commentaries

Hieromagus

nicky said:
he must have been reading AC's commentaries

Haha! Guilty as charged!

Professor X said:
Thing about the Thoth that is special to me is that it is a imprint of Crowleys magical mind after 40 years of studying the occult. Having the deck is literally a peek into exactly WHAT he knew about the magical world,being able to take that and use it to peer into our own personal universes is indeed special.
You cannot really do that with other people in history who created great works,like I mentioned in my original post we can see the great works that people like Michealangelo created,but they never really left behind anything that the interested person could take and peer inside his artistic mind and use it to create. If I am wrong about that then someone please correct me.

Let me clarify.

I only used Michelangelo as an example for objective research.

The population in general, may be mystified by wondering how Michelangelo created his art, but I, through objective scholarship, have an educated idea of the methods he used. Having such knowledge equips me to expand upon past achievements but in the context of my own time and temperament. The same goes for occult studies in my opinion.

Grigori

Rosanne said:
I understand the They are principles. Nuit, Hadit, Ra-hoor-khuit".
What I was asking (I cannot have been clear)
The Thoth Deck- recommended reading the Book of Thoth...
where specifically can you read within the The Book of Thoth the concept of -we are a God?

~Rosanne

I wasn't really making that comment in reaction to your question Rosanne, though it may appear so by the order of posting. It was a general response to this turn in the conversation and other posts more specifically.

In the BoT, Crowley uses the word "god" to mean diverse things (though they are not diverse really, again levels of interpretation play a part here and the context of use would determine which I'd apply).

"We are a God" however is the fundamental underlying structure and purpose of a qabalistic deck and the accompanying magical thinking, and is inherent in the majority of the book. At the least it is necessary to understand the intent throughout the introduction to the structure of the tarot and the court structure, as well as in many of the trumps. He does discuss it a little in the text in various places, but primarily addresses this by referring the reader to the Book of the Law, The Equinox of the Gods and Book 4 (Liber ABA) for a fuller understanding of the deck.

This is why the Thoth deck is such an achievement to my mind. It synthesizes and visually represents such a vast scope of material.

Rosanne

Thank you Grigori- I could not find those passages in the Book of Thoth.
So the Book of Thoth is a starting point and then to appreciate the deck fully one must immerse in further reading of those other books you mentioned.
Sounds like a full course in Occult studies.

~Rosanne

Kenshin Gordon

Grigori said:
The interpretation of Christ as the one an only god in flesh, is one that is valid for Christians only, and not for any others. Not that there weren't a whole lot of folks claiming that same title before and since Christ. There is nothing objectively different about Christ than any other religious prophet, and even less so from the perspective of someone who see's all people as "god". "You're the son of god eh? That's nice, me too. So's my mate Harry. Let's start a club, we'll call ourselves the Children of God"

A Thelemic interpretation would be that Christ is just one example of a man obtaining and actualizing their own god-hood. In terms of long reaching influence a stunning example, but just one none the less, and a part of a certain time and location.

No different to Buddha, for his time and location, Sri Ramakrishna for his time and location, or even Moses for his time and location, nor many others. The language is just a bit different.

Steps in the process of godhood:
1) Obtain spiritual development.
2) Talk to your God, and tell folks what God said i asked to.
3) Hope it takes off.

Being in communication with deity, and realizing your identity as that deity are just stages of development in the qabalistic model. The first you reach tipareth, the second you cross the abyss.

The ones that go off the rails are the ones that hang on to that spiritual power obtained after tipareth, but don't give up their own ego to cross the abyss and recognize their unity/identity with god. Crowley referred to them as "the black brothers"

Reading "I am god" may strike as phenomenal arrogance (I rather think he same when people say Christ is the only way to God, as if all other religions before and since are full of the damned), but in fact you could see it as a humility, in that you give up your personal ego and aspirations and recognise your unity with everything else. In that process being a god doesn't make you better than anyone else, it makes you a part of everyone else.

The real "gods" of Thelema, aren't even gods at all in the traditional sense. They are principles. Nuit, Hadit, Ra-hoor-khuit".

Ok, taking everything religious aside.

God can't be subjective, and he can't be entirely realized since he is omniscient and omnipresent, unaffected by time and space.

Don't try to logically deduce God's existence. You can't, because he transcends logic. Hence why all religious books are in the Fiction section of any bookstore or library.

The concepts of Omnisience and Omnipresence to enlighten this:

Omnipresence is a characteristic made to justify the connection between all the Abrahamic religions. Because God transcends corporeality, the laws of reality do not affect him -thus he can exist in one or more places at the same time. Just because he can though, doesn't mean he does.

Omniscience, being the absolute knoledge of EVERYTHING, past present and future is the trait that challenges the concept of free-will, because if all choices of a given scenario have already been perceived, then all conclusions are already perceived. If all conclusions are already perceived, we cannot make a choice without God having already foreseen its respective conclusion. Thus no man can become "god" or something, because he can't behold these traits which God possesses.

Sorry for the Philosophical stuff and I hope it wasn't too complicated.

Aeon418

Grigori said:
The ones that go off the rails are the ones that hang on to that spiritual power obtained after tipareth, but don't give up their own ego to cross the abyss and recognize their unity/identity with god. Crowley referred to them as "the black brothers"

It's possible to "go off the rails" much earlier than that. But, as in all things, the higher up the ladder, the greater the fall. Tower experiences are a common theme early on the path, but the expanded horizons that come with them need to be grounded and integrated. Otherwise you run the risk of making a complete prat out of yourself. (UK based Thoth-ers may remember that classic example of David Icke on the Wogan show. Oh dear.

)

Liber O is one of the first instructions given to Probationers. In the very first section is a warning that every beginner should learn by heart and repeat like a mantra.

5. There is little danger that any student, however idle or stupid, will fail to get some result; but there is great danger that he will be led astray, obsessed and overwhelmed by his results, even though it be by those which it is necessary that he should attain. Too often, moreover, he mistaketh the first resting-place for the goal, and taketh off his armour as if he were a victor ere the fight is well begun.

6. It is desirable that the student should never attach to any result the importance which it at first seems to possess.

Grigori said:
Reading "I am god" may strike as phenomenal arrogance (I rather think he same when people say Christ is the only way to God, as if all other religions before and since are full of the damned)

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father (Kether), but by me (Tiphareth).

The crazy thing is that all religions worship Tiphareth, but because they all call it a different name they are at each others throats. This is why Crowley chose to call it the HGA and acknowledged the unique individual aspect in our connection with the divine. It does presume a more grown up attitude about these things though.

Of course the existing HGA starter kit templates have been pumped full of crap over the centuries, and come with a lot of outdated sectarian and cultural baggage. Nothing that a little RHK style make-over can't sort out though.

Grigori

Rosanne said:
Thank you Grigori- I could not find those passages in the Book of Thoth.
So the Book of Thoth is a starting point and then to appreciate the deck fully one must immerse in further reading of those other books you mentioned.
Sounds like a full course in Occult studies.

~Rosanne

Well depends I guess, on if you want to appreciate the deck as a tool of attainment, as it was for the GD's adepts. In that case the Book of Thoth alone is insufficient, but it tells you specifically where else to look. This is only my personal opinion/experience, maybe there are others that don't even need the BoT to understand the deck to real depth. And of course there are many for whom the deck even is a waste of time. If you don't want the deck as part of a system of attainment, then I think extra/any reading is fairly optional. This doesn't change that attainment is its intent, but that is fine also.

Kenshin Gordon said:
Ok, taking everything religious aside.

God can't be subjective, and he can't be entirely realized since he is omniscient and omnipresent, unaffected by time and space.

Well this is a religious interpretation. Not all religions would agree on this, not even all Christians agree on that.

Kenshin Gordon said:
Don't try to logically deduce God's existence. You can't, because he transcends logic. Hence why all religious books are in the Fiction section of any bookstore or library.

True, I'm not sure what this point is supposed to rebut, as it agrees very much with Thelemic thought. You can't logically understand the divine, its not possible. You can however converse with divinity by using skills other than logic, and some people may transcend their own ego and the limitation of intellect and appreciate divinity by recognizing their unity with god (i.e. cross the abyss), in which case they understand the divine when they become it. You may prefer to think of this as "union with the divine" which to me is no different than "I am the divine". Tomato, tomatoe.

Kenshin Gordon said:
The concepts of Omnisience and Omnipresence to enlighten this:

Omnipresence is a characteristic made to justify the connection between all the Abrahamic religions. Because God transcends corporeality, the laws of reality do not affect him -thus he can exist in one or more places at the same time. Just because he can though, doesn't mean he does.

Omniscience, being the absolute knoledge of EVERYTHING, past present and future is the trait that challenges the concept of free-will, because if all choices of a given scenario have already been perceived, then all conclusions are already perceived. If all conclusions are already perceived, we cannot make a choice without God having already foreseen its respective conclusion. Thus no man can become "god" or something, because he can't behold these traits which God possesses.

Sorry for the Philosophical stuff and I hope it wasn't too complicated.

It's not complicated at all, but its only the perspective of Christians, and not that of many other religions past and present. Though Thelema is not about "free will" in the manner you are referring to, its about "true will" which is rather different and lot more restrictive. What these sorts of arguments do, is try to disprove Thelemic thought, by saying its not Christian, which is an argument about as valid as saying Christianity is false because it doesn't see the world the way Buddha did.

Man becomes god, when he recognizes his continuity within the body of god. We transcend our own finite ego and identifies ourselves as the something larger. i.e. becomes a Christ, if you will.

In Thelema the god that is "all" is Nuit, the totality of existence and also non-existence. It's in fact not possible for there to be anywhere where she is not (hehe little thelemic pun there). The divine is not seen as some separate thing that can choose to interact with creation if it wants to, creation is just another part of god, the separation in an illusion of our limited human intellect (seems a good reason to try and transcend that eh?).

Nuit said:
For I am divided for love's sake, for the chance of union

"Omnipotent" I think is just a lesser version of "immanence", that implies a false separation.

Professor X

Rosanne said:
When you talk about 'you are a God' what do you mean?

Rosanne

You have a immortal soul that dwells within you,the origination of this soul is your own higher self. You do not need to recognize a deity to gain immortality of any kind,you already posses immortality without the aid of any outside agency other than your own spirit. Because you posses immortality the direction you take in your physical existence is solely up to you. If you choose to give your power away and worship a deity then that is just a learning experience which you will grow from. Once you reach the point where you figure out that YOU are your own central figure you begin to aspire to higher goal than just mundane physical life. If people choose to bow down to a deity that is their choice but they will eventually figure there is more to existence than what they have known.

The so called death is just the immortal spirit shedding the body and moving on to other adventures in the astral world. So you are immortal spirit living withing infinite existence(Nuit) and the choices you make are determined what you decide to do in your own personal universe (Hadit). You have the power to advance and propel your OWN spiritual growth,no outside agency or deity can stop you when you choose to progress onwards,that is why you are your own God. You have always had full power over yourself and things you do.

The Occult Achievement of the 20th Century-The Thoth

nicky

Hieromagus

nicky

Hieromagus

Grigori

Rosanne

Kenshin Gordon

Aeon418

Grigori

Professor X