Differences/similarity's between the Thoth- and the Golden dawn tarot?

What I find humorous is that most RWS users have no notion of its Qabalistic complexity. This is, of course, Waite's fault for being so secretive about its origins. At the same time, this has allowed it to have enormous commercial success as a mere exoteric deck. Most fortune tellers don't want to be bothered with the philosophy underlying the design of a deck.

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Actually don`t see that as a fault, but as a strength. Sure, I think study of Kabbalah can benifit anyone and people will gain more from the decks the more they know; but Waite managed to skillfully, perhaps even more so than Crowley, mesh it into a deck that "works" even with no knowledge. Even the most inuitive readers who shun any written word about Tarot are still practicing Kabbalah when they read with the RWS, even if they don`t know/admit it. A duck is still a duck even if there is no one to call it by that name, but even more importantly, it still quacks and has webbed feet.

LRichard said:

In my opinion, the main Qabalistic difference between RWS and Thoth might be with the placement of the Emperor and the Star

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I think the total redesign of Atu XX (and to a lesser extent Atu XI) is just as big a difference, if not bigger.

Aeon418 said:

I think the total redesign of Atu XX (and to a lesser extent Atu XI) is just as big a difference, if not bigger.

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Maybe so, but they occupy the same positions on the Sephirotic Tree as the corresponding GD cards Judgment and Fortitude.

LRichard said:

Maybe so, but they occupy the same positions on the Sephirotic Tree as the corresponding GD cards Judgment and Fortitude.

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You're right, they do. But if nothing "appears" to have changed, why the need for new designs? Obviously something has changed.

Aeon418 said:

You're right, they do. But if nothing "appears" to have changed, why the need for new designs? Obviously something has changed.

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Yes, indeed. No argument there.

LRichard said:

What I find humorous is that most RWS users have no notion of its Qabalistic complexity. This is, of course, Waite's fault for being so secretive about its origins. At the same time, this has allowed it to have enormous commercial success as a mere exoteric deck. Most fortune tellers don't want to be bothered with the philosophy underlying the design of a deck.

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Agreed, that's why I brought it up.

Aeon418 said:

I think the total redesign of Atu XX (and to a lesser extent Atu XI) is just as big a difference, if not bigger.

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And don't forget ATU XII. The harder I look at the cards the more differences I see. Yet it was Case's book on the RW that first made any qabalic(?) sense to me. And Regardie helped me much with the paths during last year's Holy Season. Sometimes the gap seems very wide, other times narrow. Sometimes I think I am relating to the Christians in my life then suddenly I am not. It's akward. I'm just trying to figure it all out.

AW

Always Wondering said:

Sometimes I think I am relating to the Christians in my life then suddenly I am not. It's akward. I'm just trying to figure it all out.

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It might help you to reflect on why the Last Judgment gets replaced by the Aeon in the Thoth deck.

As has already been mentioned the traditional Judgment card and the new Aeon card occupy the same path on the Tree of Life and have the same attributions. So why was the Thoth card redesigned? The Thoth deck is a New Aeon Tarot, as such it incorporates a New Aeonic shift in perspective, a transition in consciousness away from a terrestrial-egoic-personality centered point of view to a solar perspective. This change of perspective has an effect on how some of the paths/cards appear. The path of Shin is one of them.

The Judgment card is a pictorial representation of how the personality-self "appears" to be transformed and resurrected at a higher level of spiritual awareness through the interaction of Spirit-Shin. From the personalities limited point of view spiritual development "appears" to be a trial by Fire whereby the aspirants ego follows the initiatory pattern of the dying and resurrected Solar God. The story of Jesus is the classic example of this motiff. During the course of their journey the aspirant is plunged into a Dark Night of Soul. There amid trial, tribulation, and turmoil they try to carry on with spiritial practices that have turned to dust and ashes. In the depths of despair they cry out, "Eloi Eloi lama sabachthani?" And nothing happens. All is dark and dead. But then something magical occurs. "I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live" One day, seemingly out of nowhere, the old fire suddenly bursts back into life. The inspiration returns, but now it's even more incredible and intense than it was before. To the aspirant it appears that they have evolved spiritually, moved to a higher plane of being, or been resurrected in a purer more exalted state.

It's time to burst the bubble though. In actual fact none of this happens. Just like the dying and resurrected sun, it's an illusion. It only appears to happen from the perspective of the little personality-self. In reality this little self never evolves or grows spirituality. It never moves to higher planes or anything like that. It is nothing more than a vehicle. What the personality-self perceives as spiritual growth and transformation is really just the True Solar Self manifesting through them. It's almost as if they are continually giving birth to a Child. This Child is the real Self, not the personality that most people identify with. This shift in perspective is one reason why the Aeon replaces Judgment in the Thoth deck.

Just for the record, Waite's Trump XX is not about the Biblical Judgment Day. It is about an inner transformation, which I take to be Gnosis. From PKT: "Let the card continue to depict, for those who can see no further, the Last Judgment and the resurrection in the natural body, but let those who have inward eyes look and discover therewith." Christian symbolism abounds in the RWS, because the images are derived from historical decks such as the TdM, but there is not the least bit of conventional Christianity in Waite's interpretation of the cards, as far as I can tell. The images are metaphorical, not literal.

LRichard said:

The images are metaphorical, not literal.

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Metaphorical is how I see it too. But however you look at it and on whatever level you wish to interpret it the resurrection still implies a transformation from a lower state into a higher or more perfect state. The Aeon card takes the next step beyond that metaphor and recognizes that this seeming transformation is not what it appears to be.

The best analogy is the solar one. At one time the sun was suposed to die and resurrect daily. In time this limited view was superceeded by greater understanding. The sun does not die, it's always shinning, always Becomming. Of course this new understanding doesn't mean that the daily solar cycle ceases to exist, it just doesn't have the same kind of significance that it once did.

Aeon418 said:

Metaphorical is how I see it too. But however you look at it and on whatever level you wish to interpret it the resurrection still implies a transformation from a lower state into a higher or more perfect state. The Aeon card takes the next step beyond that metaphor and recognizes that this seeming transformation is not what it appears to be.

The best analogy is the solar one. At one time the sun was suposed to die and resurrect daily. In time this limited view was superceeded by greater understanding. The sun does not die, it's always shinning, always Becomming. Of course this new understanding doesn't mean that the daily solar cycle ceases to exist, it just doesn't have the same kind of significance that it once did.

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Yes, I understand your explanation. My post was directed toward AW, who understandably is a bit bothered by Christian symbolism. I have made peace with the Christians. As long as they don't try to convert me, it's live and let live. They are free to remain shortsighted if they so desire. Most people have no philosophical inclinations, so they adopt a simplistic religion to explain things.