Carl Jung (1875-1961); Aleister Crowley (1875-1947)

Hey Zezina, Crowley absoposotively definutely knew Jung's and Freud's works, although whether or not they ever met I don't know but doesn't really matter... I came across something this week linking Crowley and Jung but I can't remember what it was. If I find it I'll post it up. Crowley and Jung though, I don't think they were quite singing from the same hymn sheet.


post edit: had a quick look but don't know what it was I saw previously, i might have mistaken it. While it's certain that Crowley would know of Freud and Jung, it's not clear (or likely) whether Freud and Jung would have heard of (or taken any interest in) Crowley.

I'd like to add if I may - I don't know anything about New-Agers; I know that Jung is quite literally a dirty word in most of academia (unfairly so, in my opinion). I have always had a fondness for Freud myself, who is so self-revealing in his wonderfully expressed narratives. I am not an expert on Jung or Crowley (Freud I can hold a better conversation on) although have read a little of both.

I don't think the Jungian personality-types contain a great deal to enhance Crowley's, and personally I don't really like the Myers Briggs etc as applied to the tarot, principally because it's an entirely prescriptive system and doesn't contain any movement, symbol or imagery, which is after all what the tarot is all about.

The energy of a Queen of Swords (for example, says Libra me) can be expressed in a myriad ways that opens up the mind and being to new ways of understanding. The MBTI cannot do that as that is not its form or function. It is a reductive system as opposed to an expansive one; I am not criticising it for that, because it is what it is, but it is not the tarot and should not (in my opinion) be used in conjunction with it.

So I don't think Crowley would have had any inclination to use Jungian theories for his tarot, even had he known about them (as I'm sure he did, although perhaps not a detailed knowledge).

Just my thoughts on a very interesting question!

another post edit: I am aware of course that Jung did not himself devise the MBTI... Jung's visionary Red Book is more in the sprit of Crowley, but that was not in public circulation at the time, so I strongly doubt Crowley would have seen it. Besides, Crowley's own visionary experiences matched and probably surpassed Jung's so, again, I don't see Crowley being much influenced by Jung. But who knows?

I think the main use of MBTI in Tarot would be in the selection of a significator (which is normally a court card representing the querent).

Jung is also a dirty word in some occult circles because he psychologizes certain things (such as gods, angels, demons, fairies, magic) which they desperately want to believe have objective, empirical reality.

LRichard said:

I think the main use of MBTI in Tarot would be in the selection of a significator (which is normally a court card representing the querent).

Jung is also a dirty word in some occult circles because he psychologizes certain things (such as gods, angels, demons, fairies, magic) which they desperately want to believe have objective, empirical reality.

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Hmm yes but Jung's work spans many decades and he himself had a number of epiphanies along the path... neither Freud nor Jung's work remained static, and Jung's Red Book is a world unto itself. Freud had a much harder time with the 'occult', although it laps at the edges of every page he ever wrote. I love it.

wulzcat said:

Hmm yes but Jung's work spans many decades and he himself had a number of epiphanies along the path... neither Freud nor Jung's work remained static, and Jung's Red Book is a world unto itself. Freud had a much harder time with the 'occult', although it laps at the edges of every page he ever wrote. I love it.

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Yes, he had some uncanny experiences. As I vaguely recall from Memories, Dreams, Reflections, one of them occurred in Freud's presence. I can't afford to buy The Red Book (yet), but it must be really fascinating. Jung apparently thought he was having a psychotic episode of some sort.

closrapexa said:

Zezina, I have to apologize somewhat, it seems you asked a question

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Thanks clorapexa, but discussion has got well underway now, and I'm appreciative that plenty of information has emerged to answer my basic question about Crowley and Jung.

My own use of MBTI with Tarot has always been solely for selecting the significator.

In recent years, when I only read the cards for friends or acquaintances, I've provided a laptop for a quick Keirsey self-test, and have always felt comfortable with the resulting significator, using Jana Riley's correspondences.

*Z*

Zezina said:

Thanks clorapexa, but discussion has got well underway now, and I'm appreciative that plenty of information has emerged to answer my basic question about Crowley and Jung.

My own use of MBTI with Tarot has always been solely for selecting the significator.

In recent years, when I only read the cards for friends or acquaintances, I've provided a laptop for a quick Keirsey self-test, and have always felt comfortable with the resulting significator, using Jana Riley's correspondences.

*Z*

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Zezina, one more thing that might be useful (or might not) - I have heard it said that Gerald Massey's work in The Natural Genesis (I assume in this book anyway) preshadows Jung's personality theories. I haven't read Massey, but am planning to; since he was an Egyptologist and (I believe) linked with occultism, it's highly likely Crowley would have read Massey's work. Hope that helps. Might be worth investigating if you're interested.

wulzcat said:

Zezina, one more thing that might be useful (or might not) - I have heard it said that Gerald Massey's work in The Natural Genesis (I assume in this book anyway) preshadows Jung's personality theories. I haven't read Massey, but am planning to; since he was an Egyptologist and (I believe) linked with occultism, it's highly likely Crowley would have read Massey's work. Hope that helps. Might be worth investigating if you're interested.

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Thank you for that info wulzcat, I'll keep an eye out for Massey's work!

*Z*

closrapexa said:

Same thing with people like Joseph Campbell. Although I practically revere The Hero with a Thousand Faces, I don't connect him with mysticism and Tarot at all, I find it a bit far fetched.

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Campbell wrote an introduction and a chapter for Richard Roberts' _Tarot Revelations_. It demonstrates that he didn't know a whole lot about tarot but enough to recognize mythic themes and parallels with the Hero's Journey. I attended a weekend workshop with Campbell on the Tarot which was disappointing in terms of the Tarot, but otherwise wonderful!

wulzcat said:

Jung's Red Book is a world unto itself.

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There are quite a few sections of the Red Book that could easily be dialogues with the Hermit, Devil, Magician, Fool, Priestess, etc.

If Jung had only realized that he could work with the Tarot archetypes in active imagination - just imagine what the results might have been!