Can someone explain these darn Thoth Courts?

ravenest

womens lib.

Kiama said:
Well, you can tell I'm not a regular Thoth user, since I just don't understand this whole Knight/Queen change...

Does the Knight still have the same meaning as the King it should have been? Or does it take on the Queen's meaning, considering it is in the place the Queen used to be? Or does it take on the Knight that is now the Prince's old meaning?

And does the Queen take on the old King's meaning, or does she keep the old Queen's meaning?

Sorry if its a stupid question, but this really does confuse me.

Kiama

Hi Kiama

I reckon ya gotta study these things from a thelemic perspective (Crowley WAs one you know ... eventually)

This is the NEW Aeon, one of its aspects is not only the equality of men and women, but a specific and new and worthwhile function and relationship of
both. What are Kings and Queens any way, who is ruling the roost here? Are we talking about an internal co-equal Ancient Egyptian system of regency (even though externaly it WAS the King who was the boss (with 2 or 3 exceptions), is it medieval where the king rules and the queen sits next to him and shuts up? "behind every great man is a good woman" , bit of a platitude?

Women had less power, now they are coming closer to equality. men have had the power .... hey! what's gonna happen to us in the new Aeon? WE wont be redundent will we? Perhaps we wont even allow equality, maybe we will give it all up and become subservient S.N.A.G.S. ?

Not on ya life? Ever noticed how when guys are 'firing' they get all hyped up, adventuroues gung ho! Yeah! Well thats the knight spirit. They wont be allowed to call alll the shots anymore, and create the messes they did before (with this unnatural and unbalanced rulking) The woman has a new vision, lets follow that for a while. The Queen rules now , the knight goes out and makes sure her rule is followed in the kingdom.' Power ' has passed from the first reckless adventurous part oif the spirit and into the more stable ruling queen. The knight energy still comes first as the first onrush of the energy and the queen '2nd' as the stabilizing force, but the queen rules and the knight uses his masculine vigour and fire and force to go out there and do something. All this is repeated in the Lust card, the lion man knight is the vehicle, the woman,queen is the director and visionary, the reins are symbolic and the enterprise is mutual. Observe the womans role in the card, and the mans (come on guys develop those 7 heads -or is 8 now that look closer?) Its the new tantric formular for sex, love, relationship and is repeated, I believe in the Knight Queen progression . The process is also internal with your anima / animus. Also see Crowleys LIBER RESH ritual, visualising Ra at the helm of the solar boat and Tahuti and prow (Ra, rowing, power force mars, knight, lion/beast - Tahuti at prow, the lookout and direction giver, the plotter of the course and communicator to the helm; the Lust, woman, Queen, mercurial force (but all under the solar lion)
 

thinbuddha

Strange2 said:
In an effort to make some sense of the Thoth court card atttributes, I tried to analyze it in terms of the two components: the court personas, and the Tarot suits. Here's what I came up with.

Court card interpretations can be viewed as an expression of the human characteristic (the court persona), as they relate to and interact with the universal elements (the 4 Tarot suits).

Court Card Characteristics:

Knights (Kings) = Committed intention and initiative, Wisdom
Queens = Integration and adaptation, Instinct and understanding
Princes = Goals and progress, Controlled Thought
Princesses (Pages) = Manifestation and results, Energy expressed in matter

Suit Expressions:

Wands = Assertion and action
Cups = Creative inspiration and emotions
Swords = Intellectual and intuitive processes, communication
Disks = Resource allocation and tangible results

Elemental Correspondences:

Fire: Wands & Knights
Water: Cups & Queens
Air: Swords & Princes
Earth: Disks & Princesses

Some examples:

Princess of Swords = Earth of Air
Manifestation of results (Princess) from Intellectual and intuitive processes (Swords)
Interpretation = Intellectual results, decision maker, activist

Prince of Disks = Air of Earth
Goals (Prince) relating to resource allocation and tangible results (Earth)
Interpretation = Progress in planned growth, understanding cause (Prince) and effect (Earth), project manager

Breaking it down into the components seem to help me more readily grasp the basic energies of the Thoth court cards.

I just had to bump this post- it has been most helpful to me in presenting a managable, easily remembered system for interpreting the court cards.
 

Asenath

I'm having trouble putting some of these concepts into words...

If:

Some examples:

Princess of Swords = Earth of Air
Manifestation of results (Princess) from Intellectual and intuitive processes (Swords)
Interpretation = Intellectual results, decision maker, activist

Prince of Disks = Air of Earth
Goals (Prince) relating to resource allocation and tangible results (Earth)
Interpretation = Progress in planned growth, understanding cause (Prince) and effect (Earth), project manager

How would the pure forms of the suits be interpreted (i.e Earth of Earth, Fire of Fire, Water of Water, Air of Air)?
 

Aeon418

Asenath said:
How would the pure forms of the suits be interpreted (i.e Earth of Earth, Fire of Fire, Water of Water, Air of Air)?
Princess of Earth ~ Earth of Earth. Very solid and dense but yet pregnant with infinite possibilities. The only way is up. ;)

Knight of Wands ~ Fire of Fire. One big explosion of energy.

Queen of Cups ~ Water of Water. The ultimate in reflection. Take one look at her and you will probably see yourself.

Prince of Wands ~ Air of Air. A literal whirlwind, going this way and that. Never stops spinning.

Hope that helps. :)
 

thinbuddha

Look at it this way:

The court card personifies the type of person that does (A) by using method (B) (A & B from list below)


A:
Knights (Kings) = Takes initiative, provides or comes to wisdom
Queens = Integrates ideas, adapts to change , comes to understanding
Princes = Moves towards goals, Controls thoughts (in self and others), organizes
Princesses (Pages) = Concerns themsleves with material results, facilitates physical or material growth

B:
Wands = Assertion and action
Cups = Creative inspiration, emotions, instinct or intuition
Swords = Intellectual and intuitive processes, communication
Disks = Resource allocation

The above lists are, by no means, complete.

So water of water (Queen of cups) would be a person that integrates (ideas) adapts or comes to an understanding through creative inspiration, emotional processes, instinct or intuition.

I've re-writen Strange2's original descriptions to fit this formula. I should point out that because this is a formula, it might not work well in all situations- but it is a place to start when trying to understand what a court card means within a spread.