Analytic Tarot and working as an atheist

Zephyros

It is also worth remembering that there are many kinds of atheists, and many of those definitions for them are graded on a curve. Compared to an Evangelical, a theistic agnostic is an atheist, but to a 'pure' atheist they are very devout and religious.

Also, in the West there seems to be a peculiar phenomenon of what I call "Christian atheists." The god they don't believe in is the monolithic, singular God of Judeo-Christianity, showing how even a "faith" in absence is still influenced by the religion they eschew.
 

wynde

Thanks for the OP and interesting discussion. I am also an atheist who does not believe in the supernatural though I have studied the cards for over a decade now. For me the tarot is every bit as interesting and meaningful without the mysticism, no disrespect intended to those who approach things differently.

The cards are so beautiful and the images and stories so meaningful that I don't think that any one card shows up because it is supernaturally more important or relevant than any other, they're all just perfect and different ways to think about things. So not only do the cards not hold any supernatural power for me, their placement in the reading doesn't either. Said another way, I don't think a given card shows up in my reading in a certain position magically, but once it shows up there randomly it will provide insight because of what I've learned about it and because I'm taking the time to reflect on something through it. Basically, even if the tarot is a luck of the draw, how lucky we are!
 

JackofWands

Thanks for the interest, everyone!

moon_light said:
I'm an atheist, too, but I do ascribe some mystical properties to the process of reading tarot cards. I believe there are things we don't understand (which makes them "mystical" to us), but I don't believe there is God or gods or some higher intelligence that's behind it. I just think the universe is too vast for us to understand.

Yours is an interesting perspective, especially with the way you pull in the idea of multiple universes. It's not quite in line with my view--I'm probably more in agreement with 3ill.yazi and Alta--but I appreciate your sharing.

One thing I would say, though, is that you might want to be wary of referring to the belief in deity as a "cop out". I understand where you're coming from, but that particular phrase has strongly negative connotations, and you might end up offending people even though you seem to have a healthy respect for other people's beliefs.

closrapexa said:
It is also worth remembering that there are many kinds of atheists, and many of those definitions for them are graded on a curve. Compared to an Evangelical, a theistic agnostic is an atheist, but to a 'pure' atheist they are very devout and religious.

Also, in the West there seems to be a peculiar phenomenon of what I call "Christian atheists." The god they don't believe in is the monolithic, singular God of Judeo-Christianity, showing how even a "faith" in absence is still influenced by the religion they eschew.

Two excellent points. I personally am more on the "pure" end of the atheistic spectrum, but just keeping in mind that there are various kinds of theistic and nontheistic ways to view the universe is a great reminder that there are going to be just as many equally applicable interpretations of Tarot. And as we saw with moon_light, there are varying interpretations even under the label of ostensible atheism.

As to your second point, Engels (I think; someone in the tradition of dialectical materialism) wrote a great deal about this phenomenon. His argument was essentially that Western atheists are more fervent in denying the Abrahamic God than are many theists in affirming him. In that sense, he says that atheists have the most faith of anyone, because they're unable to deny God without recognizing his importance. (The argument is really much more nuanced than this, but it's been a while since I've read it and I'm paraphrasing here.)

wynde said:
The cards are so beautiful and the images and stories so meaningful that I don't think that any one card shows up because it is supernaturally more important or relevant than any other, they're all just perfect and different ways to think about things. So not only do the cards not hold any supernatural power for me, their placement in the reading doesn't either. Said another way, I don't think a given card shows up in my reading in a certain position magically, but once it shows up there randomly it will provide insight because of what I've learned about it and because I'm taking the time to reflect on something through it. Basically, even if the tarot is a luck of the draw, how lucky we are!

What a beautiful way to express it! I couldn't agree with you more. To me, the card placements are governed by statistical probabilities rather than an outside force (or, as I've heard some readers say, my personal subconscious selecting cards for me), but that doesn't lessen the value I can glean from interpreting them.
 

Aidan

Hi everyone,

Moving this thread over from an original post I made in the new members' forum (here). I've been reading Tarot for six years, and have developed a reading style based mainly on introspection and using Tarot symbolism to analyze a querent's situation.

My reading style draws heavily on a personal lack of religious belief. I don't believe in anything supernatural, and that extends to the Tarot. I find Tarot a useful tool in that it consists of a set of specific symbols that I can interpret and apply to a situation, but I've never felt that the cards themselves actually presented a message of their own. The onus is on me as the reader to use what I know about the querent's situation as a way to interpret cards which (in my opinion) have no inherent meaning or message to offer.

As an extension of this, I'm reticent to try to use the Tarot to predict the future, or to talk about people other than my querent. It's not within the scope of what I believe Tarot (or, if you prefer, Tarot in my hands) can do.

I know that not everyone reads Tarot the way I do, and I want to emphasize that I don't think other ways of reading are in any way wrong or bad. It's just that this is a reading style that I'm comfortable with, based on my personal beliefs; it's what works for me. However, I wanted to share my perspective with the larger community and see what other people have to say. Do you have different perspectives? Do you think something is somehow missing from my reading style? Do you also have certain boundaries regarding the kinds of questions you will and won't accept, based on your fundamental understanding of what the cards are and do? I'd really like to get a dialogue going.

I think your approach to the cards offers a great opportunity, compared with trying to predict future. It enables you or your querent to get a new view of the situation. Thus, the cards don't make you bound to a misterious fate, but enable you change something. I myself practiced tarot by doing readings for a week, or a day. Uts useful for learning the cards, but i foubd it made me following daily routine too much, without gaining anything. (eventhough the readings simetimes were accurate).
If predicting the future works for one, its a great thing, but i got the most accurate and helpful readings when taking a more introspective, analytical approach. Thus said, i have to say that i am quite spiritual, doing meditation regularly, so my approach to the cards is based on my personal experiences.
 

nisaba

I'm also with you regarding a lot of the conventions that people have about their Tarot decks. I also feel that the cards are "just paper".
I have said that before and I will say it again, but I don't think it's *just* that. Bear with me here ...

I'm not trying to cast aspersions on your reading style whatsoever, so please forgive me and let me know if it comes across that way)
<grin> You didn't cast aspersions and I wasn't offended.

I would agree with the statement that "Tarot produces meaningful information". The way I think about it, it's more that I produce meaningful information, and I happen to do so by looking at a set of images that are, themselves, devoid of meaning.
Aha!

devoid of meaning.

This is a pretty serious point of divergence. If the images in Tarot were created by throwing inky sand on paper on a windy day, I'd believe you. But the images are *not* devoid of meaning. In the earliest decks they had to do with human power (expressed in politics), social problems and rather churchy spirituality. Over the centuries they were developed to reflect many of the archetypes that drive human life, psychology and society even more accurately.

When I sit down in front of my collection and pull out a deck purely to indulge in artistic pleasure, I don't see images that are devoid of meaning. I am not reading at such times, and will thumb through the entire deck, but I see images saturated with meaning, drenched in meaning, permeated with meaning. I just don't happen to be reading with those images at the time.

The Tarot deck is *more* than just paper and ink. There is intrinsic meaning in each of the cards, whether they are laid out in a spread in front of us, or bundled up in the back of our collection, unused and unseen for weeks. The skill of a reader is to pull out just a few of those cards which are already imbued with meaning, and relate them to a life (our own or someone else's).
 

JackofWands


Sorry, but I think you took this quote a bit out of context. The full quote is as follows:

I'm not sure that (for my readings; I'm not trying to cast aspersions on your reading style whatsoever, so please forgive me and let me know if it comes across that way) I would agree

(Emphasis added). Anyways, I think it's important for the two of us to be clear on this point, because while I understand your perspective and think it's a good one, it's very different from my own. I do not see the meaning as in any way inherent to the cards; in my mind, it's all on me.

This is a pretty serious point of divergence. If the images in Tarot were created by throwing inky sand on paper on a windy day, I'd believe you. But the images are *not* devoid of meaning. In the earliest decks they had to do with human power (expressed in politics), social problems and rather churchy spirituality. Over the centuries they were developed to reflect many of the archetypes that drive human life, psychology and society even more accurately.

Okay, this is an interesting point. Yes, I understand that the cards are painted with images that connote specific meanings--the Hanged Man has a very clear image and message, and would have even more so in the political context of pre-Renaissance northern Italy. Furthermore, I'm very much a traditional (rather than intuitive) reader; I rely on those established symbolic meanings in order to interpret the cards.

However, I differ with you on a couple of points. First off is the rather ugly (but in this case, I think valid) question of historical relativism. Like you said, a lot of the established card meanings (specifically in the Major Arcana) relate to politics and social problems, but both of those issues have changed drastically since the advent of the Tarot. I don't think we can still apply the original meanings of those cards--let's come back to the Hanged Man, which originally dealt quite literally with capital punishment for those who had offended the nobility in some way--or at least not without some heavy qualifications.

You talk about the cards having worked their way into "archetypes" of the collective unconscious. I'm actually totally on board with you on this front, because I have a strong background in Jung. But the thing about archetypes* is that they aren't actually inherently meaningful. They present form without content, thematic patterns that exist through the history of human thoughts and myth but that can manifest into radically different symbols depending on the cultural context of specific societies. The meaning comes from the way an archetype is applied in a particular culture.

*Archetypes are a problematic, ill-defined concept. This is just one of many interpretations and, like most of them, is probably not exactly what Jung originally meant when he came up with the theory, but it's the one that makes the most sense to me.

So when we talk about Tarot cards as archetypes, to me that means that they present thematic patterns that can apply to almost any human life (general and universal enough that you can call them archetypes, although a skeptic would just as easily call them a form of cold-reading), but that do not possess any inherent, specific meaning of their own until they're interpreted and supplemented with specific situational knowledge about a querent. I hope I'm explaining my view adequately; let me know if I'm not.

In a way, I suppose I can offer you the concession that Tarot cards do have their own (high-level) meanings, and when I refer to them as "devoid of meaning", I mean they lack specific meaning for the querent--that, in my opinion, has to come from the reader. I think the example I gave in my original post on the New Members' forum was the Six of Cups; depending on context, the Six of Cups can suggest that a querent should pursue childhood dreams, or can mean that they're emotionally immature and need to start living in the real world. To me, the ability to distinguish between two potential antithetical meanings (derived from the same theme) for the same card is more a question of the reader knowing the querent and being able to apply that knowledge skillfully, rather than of there being a specific "message" that the cards are trying to get across.

I suppose part of why I'm so leery of seeing the cards as having inherent meaning is that, in my understanding, Tarot is largely an "invented" tradition. Yes, you have the historical evolution of the playing-card pack and even the Marseilles deck, but all other traditions are heavily dependent on the personal interpretations of one or two people (Aleister Crowley and Pamela Coleman-Smith come to mind specifically for the way they defined the way the Minors are read to this day). It's hard for me personally to connect that to something larger than a personal, individual consciousness, although I'm sure there are people who would argue that the influential figures in the history of Tarot were able to "tap in" to said larger force.
 

Arch

I agree with your basic stance.
Me myself is a Taoist.
That means that I don't subscribe to labeling the metaphysical.
Just saying God projects so much stuff onto the mystery of the universe and beyond.
We can't even begin to comprehend that there is anything at all,
regardless if one takes a logical or mystical approach to it.
There is always a new question hiding behind every answer.

I like to use the theories of C.G Jung with the tarot.
I feel they give me a depth I would otherwise lack.

Each person will be different, but there are a lot of repeating patterns
that when you recognize them can be really helpful.

I once heard someone say that "The more personal, the more universal."
Every human issue has been lived out countless times.
There are variations, but the themes stay the same.

For me the most difficult thing in reading the tarot is wrapping my messages in cotton,
cause I have a tendency of delivering sensitive issues in a crude way.

I myself can take such feedback fairly easily so I forget that others have a lower threshold for certain messages.
 

nisaba

Sorry, but I think you took this quote a bit out of context. The full quote is as follows:

(Emphasis added). Anyways, I think it's important for the two of us to be clear on this point, because while I understand your perspective and think it's a good one, it's very different from my own. I do not see the meaning as in any way inherent to the cards; in my mind, it's all on me.
I understood that. The AHA to which you are replying was to the words "Devoid of meaning".

Okay, this is an interesting point. Yes, I understand that the cards are painted with images that connote specific meanings--the Hanged Man has a very clear image and message, and would have even more so in the political context of pre-Renaissance northern Italy. Furthermore, I'm very much a traditional (rather than intuitive) reader; I rely on those established symbolic meanings in order to interpret the cards.
So you agree with me on exactly this, the aha thing. :)

However, I differ with you on a couple of points. First off is the rather ugly (but in this case, I think valid) question of historical relativism. Like you said, a lot of the established card meanings (specifically in the Major Arcana) relate to politics and social problems, but both of those issues have changed drastically since the advent of the Tarot.
<mildly> I never said things hadn't changed through the centuries.

You talk about the cards having worked their way into "archetypes" of the collective unconscious. I'm actually totally on board with you on this front, because I have a strong background in Jung. But the thing about archetypes* is that they aren't actually inherently meaningful. They present form without content, thematic patterns that exist through the history of human thoughts and myth but that can manifest into radically different symbols depending on the cultural context of specific societies. The meaning comes from the way an archetype is applied in a particular culture.
And as larger archetypes work that way with respect to societies, Tarot cards work like that with respect to different clients.

So when we talk about Tarot cards as archetypes, to me that means that they present thematic patterns that can apply to almost any human life (general and universal enough that you can call them archetypes, although a skeptic would just as easily call them a form of cold-reading), but that do not possess any inherent, specific meaning of their own until they're interpreted and supplemented with specific situational knowledge about a querent. I hope I'm explaining my view adequately; let me know if I'm not.
It works for me.

In a way, I suppose I can offer you the concession that Tarot cards do have their own (high-level) meanings, and when I refer to them as "devoid of meaning", I mean they lack specific meaning for the querent--that, in my opinion, has to come from the reader.
So ... they have meaning, but they lack interpretation and practical application, which is what I as a reader supply.

I suppose part of why I'm so leery of seeing the cards as having inherent meaning is that, in my understanding, Tarot is largely an "invented" tradition.
All traditions have to start somewhere. I have a personal tradition that I'm trying to pass on to my daughter and will try to pass on to my grandchildren, that on the anniversary of a friend or family member's death, I light them a candle and keep it burning all day. I stole that tradition from a friend who used to do it when he was alive, and who then died. I did it first for him, because I knew it was his tradition and there was no one else who would do it for him, then I started doing it for everyone. That tradition didn't just happen: he invented it artificially, and I stole it. I think you'll find that all traditions, even wearing white for funerals (or weddings depending on your society) or having cake and candles on your birthday were invented by *someone*. The tradition of dressing girls in pink (a Fire/masculine colour) and boys in blue (a Water/feminine colour) only dates from a single magazine article in the late 1920s - before that boys were dressed in shades of red including pink, and girls were dressed in blue. All traditions are invented. It's just that some are invented in our time, and some in our ancestors' time. The ancestors' inventions have no greater validity than ours.

Yes, you have the historical evolution of the playing-card pack and even the Marseilles deck, but all other traditions are heavily dependent on the personal interpretations of one or two people (Aleister Crowley and Pamela Coleman-Smith come to mind specifically for the way they defined the way the Minors are read to this day).
And yet having your cards professionally read has been mentioned in literature since at least the early 1550s.

It's hard for me personally to connect that to something larger than a personal, individual consciousness, although I'm sure there are people who would argue that the influential figures in the history of Tarot were able to "tap in" to said larger force.
So ... personal, individual consciousness coming up with something that a whole community says YES! to and adopts and maintains over the years, then centuries, does not become a valid tradition?

Dammit! Now I'll never be able to light another candle or bake another birthday cake! <laughter>

Oh, and [perhaps those named individuals weren't acting as "just people" at the time, but might have been acting unconsciously as the vehicle for a larger system of Tarot, already existing in potential, to come into the world?
 

JackofWands

My goodness, Nisaba, we seem to have started moving in circles. It looks to me like we largely agree. There is one point I'd like to clarify, though, because I'm not actually sure where you stand and I know it's been a big difference between myself and some other readers. Do you believe that there is some kind of external supernatural force that aids in the selection of Tarot cards for a reading, or in your opinion is it more a matter of random chance? To me, it's more of the latter; when I speak of (or, rather, spoke of) the cards as "devoid of meaning", I was trying to express the idea that I don't believe there's anything inherently meaningful in which cards turn up in a spread. In my view, it's random, and then I can use the general themes of the cards (paired with my understanding of the querent's situation) to interpret a random spread in a meaningful way. Where do you stand on this?

As to the question of invented traditions, I do understand what you're saying. (The American Thanksgiving is another excellent example for your case.) I'm just a little leery of taking something that I know came from the mind of a single individual or a small group thereof and ascribing to it quasi-mystical properties. Now, I'm speaking from a stance of slight hypocrisy here, because like I mentioned, I'm a very traditional reader and I like the formal structure of Tarot, contrived though I may think it is, but I suppose I rationalize the dissonance by viewing Tarot not as a means of accessing higher wisdom or greater truth, but as a somewhat arbitrary set of symbols I can appropriate and use to interpret specific situations.

Now, as to the formational figures in Tarot having served as "conduits" for the potential system of Tarot (preexisting in the collective unconscious, if I understand you correctly) to become actualized, it's definitely a workable theory. I don't have a refutation for it, and it's as valid as what I think, but for some reason it just doesn't quite sit with me.

On another note...

I think your approach to the cards offers a great opportunity, compared with trying to predict future. It enables you or your querent to get a new view of the situation. Thus, the cards don't make you bound to a misterious fate, but enable you change something. I myself practiced tarot by doing readings for a week, or a day. Uts useful for learning the cards, but i foubd it made me following daily routine too much, without gaining anything. (eventhough the readings simetimes were accurate).
If predicting the future works for one, its a great thing, but i got the most accurate and helpful readings when taking a more introspective, analytical approach. Thus said, i have to say that i am quite spiritual, doing meditation regularly, so my approach to the cards is based on my personal experiences.

Thanks for joining the conversation! I also go back and forth with the question of daily draws (although I suppose that conversation belongs in another thread altogether). Part of the issue is, as you said, that (for me) it's always become a bit too much of a routine and has started to lose the value; I would be performing readings for myself when I didn't really have questions to ask, and consequently, I ended up struggling to find appropriate interpretations for the cards. I suppose there's always some way to connect a Tarot reading back to your life, but my current stance is that I'd rather only do readings when I have a specific question to ask (although I'm sure that will change).

Also, I think it makes perfect sense to use introspective Tarot in combination with a spirituality based on meditation. A lot of meditation work can be about emotionally grounding yourself, so it makes perfect sense to me that your spirituality would fit with a Tarot reading style focused more around understanding your current spiritual/emotional state rather than trying to look to what's to come.
 

dancing_moon

Personally, I don't believe in 'supernatural' in the sense that, for me, everything that happens in the world is 'natural', even if (yet) unexplained by the science.

I see the Universe as one immense energy entity, much like a huge body of water, and anything that happens in one place affects everything that happens in other places in it. That's why I don't really think anything in this world is 'random', only that the reasons behind some things aren't so readily evident. For those reasons, I don't mind 'predictive' questions and most questions involving third parties, unless they deal exclusively with third parties.

I don't think I'm wise or qualified enough to tell if anything is 'missing' in your reading style, only you can tell for sure. But if it works, then it should be fine. :)