The Lion, The Pagan And The Eighth Card.

Guiding Cauldron

I may be off but find the strength card depiction of a woman, not taming but with grace working with the lion.

As hard as that is to believe I feel that through Grace; inner strength is achieved which is then protryaed around others. Not everything has to be done with brute force in order to be achieved, sometimes a lighter hand and showing grace and compassion of heart will achive just as poignantly.

Much as Mary through the past is usally depicted achieveing much by showing Grace upon others; it takes an inwardly strong person to be able to show this quality with consistency to others.
 

kwaw

Rosanne said:
Or should I say who would likely be under strength?

~Rosanne

According to tradition it was Holoferne (of beheaded by Judith fame).
 

Bernice

But if Cybele existed before christanity, and was a poplular deity, is it not likely that the christains snaffled the image for one of their Virtues?


Bee :)
 

kwaw

Bernice said:
But if Cybele existed before christanity, and was a poplular deity, is it not likely that the christains snaffled the image for one of their Virtues?


Bee :)

Early Christians appropriated many pagan images - there is an undoubted and well attested relationship between images of the Virgin Mary and Child and Isis and Horus for example - however, despite whatever pagan image may have been the model - it was the Virgin and Child that was meant to be represented - and what any audience of 15th century Italy would have 'seen'. There is a further appropriation in the 15th century of sarcophagi images by renaissance artists to portray Christian images - of both the Virgin Mary and Mary Magdalene for example - but it is nonetheless the two Mary's that are being represented, not the pagan precedents being drawn upon.

Can anyone show images of Cybele from the place and period that has such a clear relationship - is it truly likely that a mid-15th century North Italian would have looked at the image and thought 'Cybele' rather than 'Fortitude'? Fortitude is part of the well established set of images in the tarot - as the image so obviously matches the iconographic details attached to 'Fortitude', and is a theme of virtue that is pretty much standard across numerous variations of deck patterns, why do we need to consider it anything other than the blatantly obvious?

The idea of an image representing the triumph of Christianity over Paganism is not in itself far fetched - perhaps, as I have suggested elsewhere, that is what the image of the Pope with Sphinx partly represents in another set of cards - but this image is clearly related to the virtue - any comparison to be made would be between a virtue with its corresponding vice.

Nonetheless, Rosanne raises an interesting question as to why the virtues of Hope, Charity and Faith in the CY seemingly belong to a different tradition in the representation of the virtues than its representation of Fortitude - why are those represented with the vice they triumph over and Fortitude not? There seems to be an inconsistency in the representation of the theme. Why the mix, do they belong together?

Kwaw

ps: I have been looking online for images of Samson from the Visconti Book of Hours - as I haven't been able to find the ones I am looking for I will scan them in when I have time.
 

Rosanne

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Forteza_Virtus_or_Fortitude.jpg

Earlier.... http://www.artrenewal.org/pages/artwork.php?artworkid=16762

This one is Armour and column....http://www.artilim.com/artist/uccello-paolo/fortitude.aspx

There are many images from the Renaissance. Column/Broken Column/Armour/Lion with male etc. I have not found Crowned female with Lion that says Fortitude.

Here is Cybele the lion is missing....Magna Mater
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Cybele_formiae.jpg
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Cybele_Getty_Villa_57.AA.19.jpg

Then there is this one...
http://www.etsy.com/listing/41213312/beautiful-silver-lady-with-lion-le-maire which really is a red herring but tells what I mean. This is a mayor of Lyon medal.
Now when a city was saved from the plague as was Milan, often there were depictions of the Virgin Mary and a lion and hospitals and churches were dedicated to this 'salvation' of the city by the Virgin Mary.
So what I am saying is that I do not necessarily believe that this is Fortitude.
If the female figure had some Armour apparent - just the lion to indicate this.

It is as Kwaw said this card has a difference from the other Virtues in the Cary-Yale, I do admit that there are not the other cardinal Virtues to compare with.

~Rosanne
 

Rosanne

Kwaw said:
Can anyone show images of Cybele from the place and period that has such a clear relationship - is it truly likely that a mid-15th century North Italian would have looked at the image and thought 'Cybele' rather than 'Fortitude'? Fortitude is part of the well established set of images in the tarot - as the image so obviously matches the iconographic details attached to 'Fortitude', and is a theme of virtue that is pretty much standard across numerous variations of deck patterns, why do we need to consider it anything other than the blatantly obvious?

Well this image in the Cary-Yale Visconti is now standard- but would you not say that the Cary Yale Visconti is one of the earliest Tarot we have? I am also not sure that a Pagan image would not be instantly thought of rather than a Christian image. In the circles these images were seen (as Playing cards) would not associations be natural- given the art of the Renaissance?
Here is Giotto's Fortitude
http://www.flickriver.com/photos/28433765@N07/3693755424/
Now this is an armed Warrior- what makes you think this looks Christian?
The Virtues were taken from Aristotle and Plato first before they became Christian theology.
I am not debating for debating's sake- I genuinely think this image(Cary-Yale Fortitude) is strange.
~Rosanne
 

Rosanne

Here is what Saint Augustine said of Fortitude.....

For these four virtues (would that all felt their influence in their minds as they have their names in their mouths!), I should have no hesitation in defining them: that temperance is love giving itself entirely to that which is loved; fortitude is love readily bearing all things for the sake of the loved object; justice is love serving only the loved object, and therefore ruling rightly; prudence is love distinguishing with sagacity between what hinders it and what helps it.

Here is what the Bible says of Fortitude.....
Book of Wisdom (8:7): “Or if one loves justice the fruits of her works are virtues; For she teaches moderation and prudence, justice and fortitude, and nothing in life is more useful for men than these.”

Here is what Plato says of Fortitude....
In the Republic Plato narrates a discussion of the character of a good city where the following is agreed upon. “Clearly, then, it will be wise, brave, sober, and just.” (427e; see also 435b)

It is said that although Aristotle makes animal courage only the basis of fortitude - the will is courageous, but the animal spirit co-operates ( ho de thymos synergei ) he has not a similar contempt for the body, and speaks more honourably of courage when it has for its prime object the conquest of bodily fear before the face of death in battle.

Then Saint Augustine goes on to say....
They [the pagans] have made Virtue also a goddess, which, indeed, if it could be a goddess, had been preferable to many. And now, because it is not a goddess, but a gift of God, let it be obtained by prayer from Him, by whom alone it can be given, and the whole crowd of false gods vanishes.

What I am saying is in this card (CY) has the Goddess remained?

~Rosanne
 

kwaw

quote:
"Samson is represented in the Visconti Hours by nine narrative scenes, more than the number devoted to any other Old Testament figure other than Moses. His prominence in Filipo Maria's manuscript can probably be explained in part by his attractiveness to the worldly prince as a paradigm of God-given power...

ViscontiSamson.jpg


"...In accordance with a widespread pictorial convention, Samson straddles the Lion...and rends its jaws from behind."

In reference to the crown on the figure, just as there was a tradition of representing allegorical figures of the virtues as woman, so there was of representing them as Queens, so associating royalty and nobility as exemplars of virtue.
 

Rosanne

Aye Kwaw that looks like Samson :D

Wonder why it is not Samson in the Cary-Yale? Or Hercules?
So I guess you might say this is the first feminist deck. :)

~Rosanne
 

KariRoad

plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose

Newton's Laws
re FORCE

The first law states that every object will remain at rest or in uniform motion in a straight line unless compelled to change its state by the action of an external FORCE.

The second law explains how the velocity of an object changes when it is subjected to an external FORCE.

The third law states that for every action (FORCE) in nature there is an equal and opposite reaction.

*

"Strength" (fortitude) no, FORCE yes :)